{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1566", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1566, "subject": "Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-04-22T19:58:32+00:00", "last": "1999-04-24T19:19:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-04-22T19:58:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to thank everyone on the list for the warm welcome. In particular,\nthanks to alga for cluing me in on that HTML problem. I apologise for\ncluttering up the list with all that illegible nonsense; my intention was\nto clutter it up with legible nonsense.\n\nChristoper R. Culver wrote:\n\n\"I think that the \"judge\" version of Tzadkiel, analogous to the Archangel\nMichael, would be certainly be divine. Whether of not he receives\ncommunication directly from the Pancreator is one of the more interesting\nmysteries of _Urth_.\"\n\nI approach TBOTNS and UOTNS from a materialistic point of view. If the\nelements of fantasy have an ultimately scientific rationale within the\ncontext of the book, then so too should the religious elements. If, for\nexample, Terminus Est is not a magical sword but rather a subtle and\ningenious mechanism, then I believe it is appropriate to apply the same\nstandards of proof to the larger machines -- even the deus ex machinae -- at\nplay.\n\nI do not blieve that Tzad is remotely connected to the Archangel Michael, in\neither motive or substance. If he comes off like an angel on the Day of\nJugement this is a carefully orchestated effect, done for the benefit of Sev\nand his personal, shall we say, demons." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-23T13:59:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 22, 7:58pm, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism\nI'd like to thank everyone on the list for the warm welcome. In particular,\nthanks to alga for cluing me in on that HTML problem. I apologise for\ncluttering up the list with all that illegible nonsense; my intention was\nto clutter it up with legible nonsense.\n\nChristoper R. Culver wrote:\n\n\"I think that the \"judge\" version of Tzadkiel, analogous to the Archangel\nMichael, would be certainly be divine. Whether of not he receives\ncommunication directly from the Pancreator is one of the more interesting\nmysteries of _Urth_.\"\n\nI approach TBOTNS and UOTNS from a materialistic point of view. If the\nelements of fantasy have an ultimately scientific rationale within the\ncontext of the book, then so too should the religious elements. If, for\nexample, Terminus Est is not a magical sword but rather a subtle and\ningenious mechanism, then I believe it is appropriate to apply the same\nstandards of proof to the larger machines -- even the deus ex machinae -- at\nplay.\n\nI do not blieve that Tzad is remotely connected to the Archangel Michael, in\neither motive or substance. If he comes off like an angel on the Day of\nJugement this is a carefully orchestated effect, done for the benefit of Sev\nand his personal, shall we say, demons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt can certainly be approached that way; however, from the standpoint\nof the author, at least, it would appear there IS an implied connection between\nthe material events and a spiritual reality. That is, although Wolfe \"plays\nthe science fiction game\" nicely and does provide a purely materialistic\nexplanation most of the time (as in BOTLS for Silk's enlightenment, the Crane\nhypothesis), Wolfe obviously isn't a materialist, and the fiction stretches the\nbelief in a purely materialistic explanation pretty thin--it works, but a more\nplausible worldview for the reality portrayed would accept non-material\ninfluences. I like to think of it in the Douglas Adams refutation of Sherlock\nHolmes' \"When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however\nimprobable must be the truth\"--sometimes it is better to reject a certain idea\nof what is impossible than to accept the monstrously improbable. In other\nwords, although Wolfe doesn't come out and FORCE acceptance of the non-material\nelements, his fictions are pretty heavily weighted (as I'd argue the real world\nis) in favor of a non-purely-materialistic explanation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Carlos Martinho", "address": "carlosom71 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-04-23T11:55:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi! It's my first post. This\nmaterialism/supernaturalism question in TBONS and\nUOTNS \nis quite interesting, so...\n\nI guess it's a mistake to attempt to put Wolfe's work\nin one of these categories, or read it in a\n\"materalistic\" or \"supernaturalistic\" view. The TBONS\nuniverse is so old that every distintion of this kind\nmakes no more sense in the minds of the people who\nlive there, and it's a new approach to us -- a\napproach that we have to grasp.\n\nIt's a universe where the scientific facts are seen\njust as the magic of the Increate, after all. I guess\nthat the best aproach would be to see the Increate\nas a god on the Spinozean sense: the Substance.\n\nAnd, if all of us are tools of the Increate, why\ncouldn't Tzadikiel be some sort of high-high-high-tech\nandroid and the archangel Gabriel at the same time? an\nangel, after all, is just a messenger -- a tool -- of\nthe Increate...\n\n===\n\"The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or\n unfound, is upon me at times. Often I\n long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces\n of translucent azure marble, mocking the \nwindless waters of lakes unfathomably calm\"\n\nClark Ashton Smith, \"Nostalgia of the Unknown\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-23T16:26:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Carlos Martinho wrote:\nI guess it's a mistake to attempt to put Wolfe's work\nin one of these categories, or read it in a\n\"materalistic\" or \"supernaturalistic\" view. The TBONS\nuniverse is so old that every distintion of this kind\nmakes no more sense in the minds of the people who\nlive there, and it's a new approach to us -- a\napproach that we have to grasp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We recently had a discussion that touched on this topic. Some people\nargue that the distinction between \"materialistic\" and \"supernaturalistic\"\nis a modern one, and that it's we who are unique in making the\ndistinction, not the TBONS universe for not making it.\n\n-Rostrum " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-04-24T19:19:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Deluge, Hierodules, Materialism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "alga wrote:\n\n\"Now wait a sec here. Tzadkiel is not Michael but s/he certainly is an\nangel,\nnot an archangel like Michael, but a sufficiently great and important being\nfor Urth/Ushas. S/he is the Angel of Divine Justice. (My info comes from\nGustav Davidson's -A Dictionary of Angels-, Free Press 1967, which is not\none of those idiotic gift-books of angels, but a scholarly work). I don't\nhave the book to hand, so cannot tell you more, but I do have a xerox of the\nlist of the 30 top angels (and the 103 fallen angels).\"\n\nAlex David Groce wrote:\n\n\"That is, although Wolfe \"plays the science fiction game\" nicely and does\nprovide a purely materialistic\nexplanation most of the time (as in BOTLS for Silk's enlightenment, the\nCrane\nhypothesis), Wolfe obviously isn't a materialist, and the fiction stretches\nthe\nbelief in a purely materialistic explanation pretty thin--it works, but a\nmore\nplausible worldview for the reality portrayed would accept non-material\ninfluences. I like to think of it in the Douglas Adams refutation of\nSherlock\nHolmes' \"When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however\nimprobable must be the truth\"--sometimes it is better to reject a certain\nidea\nof what is impossible than to accept the monstrously improbable. In other\nwords, although Wolfe doesn't come out and FORCE acceptance of the\nnon-material\nelements, his fictions are pretty heavily weighted (as I'd argue the real\nworld\nis) in favor of a non-purely-materialistic explanation.\"\n\nI disagree with the above two statements by alga and Alex Groce for much the\nsame reason. They both make the assumption, and perhaps a reasonable one\ngiven what I've heard of Gene Wolfe's beliefs, that the mysteries or themes\nof TBOTNS may be best understood or explained through the prism of certain\nstrands of Christian tradition. The assumption is neither correct or\nincorrect, it is simply one positionof many and serves to prove how\nmultifaceted and multi-dimensional an experience TBOTNS is. My personal\npoint of view is that to assume that Tzadkiel is an angel simply because\nthere is a tradition of there being an angel named Tzadkiel in Western\nculture is fine, but does that mean that every sailor named Jonas was once\nswallowed by a whale in the Mediterranean?\n\nAlex Groce believes that TBOTNS is slanted towards a non-materialistic view\nof the universe. I don't know. Wolfe could have written that Terminus Est\nwas a magical sword, but in fact it is a technological artifact. The\nPelerines' tent could have risen into the air by divine fiat but was in fact\ninflated by hot air as the Pelerines torched it. Master Malrubius could be\na spiritual ghost or an angel or a spirit from heaven but he is in fact a\nsort of three dimensional projection. In Citadel Wolfe could have written\n\"these Hieros are angels, they come from Heaven, the Increate is the God of\nthe Bible\" but he does not; their origin is explained in the very\nmaterialistic terms of biology, politics and technology. The whole cosmic\nflower metaphor or discription is actually lifted from Hinduism. The\nactions of the Hieros appear to me to be no different from any\ntechnologically superior colonizing force, the only difference that I see is\nthat they look and dress like angels and monks as opposed to green men with\nfishbowl helmets. The issue, I would argue, is not separating the\nimpossible from the improbable; it is separating what you want to see from\nwhat is actually there.\n\nOri" } ] } ] }