{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1570", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1570, "subject": "Iron men", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-04-23T20:23:08+00:00", "last": "1999-04-26T11:02:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-04-23T20:23:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Iron men", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " In URTH Sidero tells Sev how his (Sidero's) kind came to be. They\nstarted out as glorified spacesuits for the sailors, becoming, as more\ngadgetry and circuits were added, self-aware entities capable of independent\naction. They are hollow because they were originally designed to house human\nsailors. Because they are hollow they are lightweight. Sev calls them\nandroids and realizes that that is what Jonas had once been (chapter VIII).\nWhen he carried Jonas from the Antechamber he was surprised at how\nlightweight he was and speculated that it was due to his metal parts being\nmade of some lightweight alloy. Wrong. He was lightweight because the metal\nparts were hollow, and the metal parts were made of iron, if not literally\nat least metaphorically.\n\n In Greek mythology Sidero was female, not male. Sidero has two separate\nmeanings. One is \"starry\", the other is a prefix meaning \"iron\". Sidero\nmentions two others of his kind, Hadid and Hierro. Al Hadid, also called\n\"Iron\", is the title of the 57th Surah of the KORAN. Hierro is Spanish for\n\"iron\".\n\n Jonas means \"dove\", but whether this was his original name or not is\nunknown. Jonas is very secretive about his past. He implies that he was a\ncrewman of a starship that crashed, the crew then scattering. Maybe so. But\nhis name invites comparison with his biblical namesake. Jonah disobeyed God\nand took ship for Tarshish. God sends a storm in punishment, unnecessary\ncargo is thrown overboard (Hethor knows about cargo) and Jonah too, as a\nscapegoat, where he is swallowed by the \"whale\". Thus the origin of the term\n\"jonah\" for someone who is bad luck. Jonas has a lot of bad luck. Was he\nbanished for some \"sin\", either by Tzadkiel or other agent of the Increate?\nJonas lost his left hand; Sidero lost his right arm and hand. This has\nresonances with Jonah 4:11. \"... persons that cannot discern between their\nright hand and their left hand ...\" It took Sev a while to figure out which\nof Jonas's hands was the prosthetic.\n\n Further, it is Sidero who tells Sev: \"We sail in and out of Time, then\nback again. There is only one ship, the captain says. [Tzadkiel is the\ncaptain] All the ships we hail between the galaxies or the suns are this\nship.\" Does this mean just what it says? Are the \"Quasar\", \"Fortunate\nCloud\", and Tzadkiel's ship one and the same?\n\n Is this all coincidence? I doubt it. The androids Sidero and Jonas have\nbecome human, whether by accident or design, in all ways that matter save\nthe biological. Perhaps All Too Human, in the Nietzschean sense.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-26T11:02:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Iron men", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\n In URTH Sidero tells Sev how his (Sidero's) kind came to be. They\nstarted out as glorified spacesuits for the sailors, becoming, as more\ngadgetry and circuits were added, self-aware entities capable of independent\naction. They are hollow because they were originally designed to house human\nsailors. Because they are hollow they are lightweight. Sev calls them\nandroids and realizes that that is what Jonas had once been (chapter VIII).\nWhen he carried Jonas from the Antechamber he was surprised at how\nlightweight he was and speculated that it was due to his metal parts being\nmade of some lightweight alloy. Wrong. He was lightweight because the metal\nparts were hollow, and the metal parts were made of iron, if not literally\nat least metaphorically.\n\n In Greek mythology Sidero was female, not male. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps my mind is too deep in the gutter but my first thought on\nreading that was maybe the symbolism of Sev entering a Sidero/Suit that\nhad female characteristics would have been just too much.\n\nEven as it is, Sev's use of Sidero is very much a violation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sidero has two separate\nmeanings. One is \"starry\", the other is a prefix meaning \"iron\". Sidero\nmentions two others of his kind, Hadid and Hierro. Al Hadid, also called\n\"Iron\", is the title of the 57th Surah of the KORAN. Hierro is Spanish for\n\"iron\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So we have three men of iron - is there any reference to alternative\nnames for, or used by Jonas? I can't recall.\n\nIf one accepts that the simplest solution suffices then Jonas and Sidero\ncan be taken to be entities of the same kind - ex-space armour. But the\ncontrast between Sidero's strenght and Jonas' weakness is marked. That\nweaknes I'd ascribe to the failing of the human parts Jonas used to\nrepair himself which leads me to wonder how such a repair could have\nbeen effected on a hollow body.\n\nUm, hollow men. Is there an allegory there? Sidero's lack of empathy and\nJonas' apparent surprise at a developing emotional need (Jollenta)\nsuggest to me that constructs might be missing some vital ingredient for\n\"humanity\" (being more that just self-awareness) that Jonas was able to\nabsorb through long exposure to and mimicry of human behaviour which\nSidero, being in command, has had neither opportunity nor need to\naquire.\n\nOf the several types of beings - hierodules, Baldanders, the ape\nguardians of the Saltus treasure cave, Ascians: all seem to display some\nempathy, or at least emotion driven reaction. There does however seem to\nbe gradation. Ascians live in a constructed society and emotive\nreactions are, if not supressed then subsumed by the limitations of\ntheir constructed language. It's suggested that the ape guardians are\nconstructed for their purpose and the emotions displayed are limited to\nanger, fear and adoration of the claw. The heirodules are unequivocally\nconstructs and it seems to me that their ability to sympathise with\nhumanity is something that they have to consciously cultivate. Siderao\nis perhaps the most \"mechanical\" of the constructed but self-aware\nentities that we see and for him there is almost no display of emotion\nexcept loyalty to the ship and captain which could be explained as being\nprogrammed in in the first place.\n\nIf there is a hierarchy of construction/humanity one would expect\nSeverian and Everyman to be at the apex. Yet his obvious failings make\nthis unlikely. Too often he does not understand others motivaions in his\nfirst travels although he does markedly better in his third pilgramge\nafter returning from space (counting the voyage on Tad's ship as No 2).\nWhich brings us back to the question of just how is Sev qualified for\nhis task. And a subsidiary: is he changed by his Journey? Does his\nconnection to the new sun give him insights that were denied to him\nbefore? It seems to me that this is the case.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }