{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1580", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1580, "subject": "More on Iron Men", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-04-26T22:59:02+00:00", "last": "1999-04-27T16:28:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-04-26T22:59:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Iron Men", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Malthouse wrote:\nIf one accepts that the simplest solution suffices then Jonas and Sidero\ncan be taken to be entities of the same kind - ex-space armour. But the\ncontrast between Sidero's strenght and Jonas' weakness is marked. That\nweaknes I'd ascribe to the failing of the human parts Jonas used to\nrepair himself which leads me to wonder how such a repair could have\nbeen effected on a hollow body.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hollow or not, patching an android with human parts would be quite a\nfeat, in any event. And in chapter XVI of _Claw_ Wolfe contrasts the\nrelative strengths of Jonas's left (flesh) hand and metal (right) hand:\n\n\"Jonas seemed to assume that I would go as well, and gripped my shoulder\nwith his left hand; it felt as weak as a woman's.\" Then, three pages later:\n\"He gripped my shoulder as he had before, but this time with his steel hand;\nit felt as strong as a vice.\"\n\n Before that, in chapter XIV, en route to the Antechamber, Jonas has been\nknocked unconscious: \"... two praetorians picked up poor Jonas and carried\nhim. They did it as easily as they might have carried a child; but I at the\ntime attributed that only to their strength.\" Note the phrasing. This\nforeshadows Sev's noticing his lightness when he lifts him in\nthe Antechamber. The metal parts of his body are hollow.\n\n In my search for quotes I just realized something: unless Wolfe made an\nerror, Sev did not die from the \"fall\". If you will remember, Sev says that\nwhen he was struck, several of his teeth were knocked out. This, of course,\nas Sev had reasoned, took place *after* he was out of Sidero's body.\nAndroids are shown to be very strong, as well as hardy. The following is\nfrom _Urth_, chapter X. Sev is talking to Gunnie:\n\n------\n I said, \"Speaking of Sidero, was he around when Zak took you to the\nbottom of the airshaft?\"\n \"No, there was nobody there but you.\"\n \"Did you see my pistol, or the knife you gave me when we first met?\n \"No, there wasn't anything there. Did you have them on when you fell?\"\n \"Sidero had them. I was hoping he'd been honest enough to return them,\nbut at least he didn't kill me.\"\n------\n Wrong again. The metallic object Sev heard dropped on the stair was the\nbelt with the gun and knife on it, not Sidero's missing arm, as I suggested\nin my earlier post. The dialogue continues:\n\n------\n \"He wouldn't. He can play rough sometimes, but I never heard that he\nkilled anybody.\"\n \"I think he must have struck me while I was unconscious. I don't think I\ncould have hurt my mouth in the fall. I was inside him, did I tell you\nthat?\"\n She drew away to stare at me. \"Really? You can do that?\"\n \"Yes. He didn't like it, but I think that something in the way he's\nbuilt kept him from trying to expel me as long as I was conscious. After we\nfell, he must have opened up and pulled me out with his good arm. I'm lucky\nhe didn't break both my legs. When he got me out, he must have struck me.\"\n------\n\n Remember, when Sev first got inside him Sidero threatened to kill him.\nHe did. When Sev saw his own dead body, his lame leg had a compound\nfracture. If the fall wouldn't have knocked his teeth out, then it damn sure\ndidn't allow his leg to be broken. Sev knows this, at some level, which is\nwhy he said what he did about \"break *both* by legs\". That is the guilt\nSidero felt that I mentioned in my earlier post, only his crime was worse\nthan I thought.\n\n That Sidero killed him is confirmed in chapter XIII. Sidero is\naddressing Sev:\n\n------\n \"I hurt you. It is my right and duty to correct and chastise. Then I had\njoy of it.\"\n I asked him if he referred to his striking me when I lay unconscious,\nand he nodded. \"I must not.\" He seemed about to speak further, but did not.\nAfter a moment he said, \"I cannot explain.\"\n \"We know what moral considerations are,\" I told him.\n \"Not as we. You believe you do. We know, and yet often make mistakes. We\nmay sacrifice men to save our own existence. We may transmit and originate\ninstructions to men. We may correct and chastise. But we may not become as\nyou are. That is what I did. I must repay.\"\n------\n\n Do androids abuse corpses? I don't think so; very irrational. Sev\nsurvived the \"fall\". He was unconscious when Sidero pulled him out, as the\nabove establishes. Then Sidero struck him, knocked his teeth out, broke his\nleg; in short, killed him, as he promised. All because, from Sidero's\nviewpoint, Sev was an uppity sailor. In a pique of human emotion an android\nstruck and killed a human. This violates Asimov's laws as well as the\nIncreate's. And Wolfe knows the difference between dead and unconscious.\n\n\nMark Millman wrote:\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surely the \"dark lubricant\" is actually blood; it would\nbe typical of Severian to misidentify it.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\n He does make that mistake once, but when he gets closer to Sidero and\nsees his arm: \"Now that I could see him better, I realized that the dark\noozing fluid I had supposed human blood was far too viscid, and a blackish\ngreen rather than crimson.\" It is to stop the loss of this fluid that is the\nobject of Sev's \"repairs\":\n\n\"Thank you,\" Sidero said. \"I have been losing a great deal of pressure.\"\n(chapter VIII, _Urth_)\n\n Jonas's metal hand is strong for the same reason Sidero's is: \"They\nwanted to be stronger too, for war and work on deck. Then they put the\nliquid you saw into us so that our arms and legs would move as they wanted,\nbut with greater force.\" (ibid.)\n\n I contend that the \"dark lubricant\" Sev sees is the formerly pressurized\nfluid from Sidero's damaged arm and/or electrolyte fluid leaked from the\ndamaged fuel cell, the cell having been damaged in the \"fall\". That the\nevents are out of sequence doesn't matter in \"eternity\", which is where the\nship travels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nYes. Sidero is a completely different kind of android to Jonas. The mere\nfact that Severian can climb inside him tells us that he is far more\nbulky than a human being. There is also moment in UOTNS when Severian\nactually sees two androids of Jonas's make.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yes, Sidero is obviously larger than Sev, but not \"far more bulky than a\nhuman being.\" In chapter II Sev describes him as \"... a figure that might\nhave been that of a massive man in armor complete.\" These beings were\ndesigned to be worn on deck and among the rigging, so they couldn't be\nbulky. And Sev does have trouble getting inside him, particularly his legs,\nwhich is why Sev cons him into lying down first. Once inside, he is able to\nsee through the visor, which is where a human's eyes would be, if Sidero\nwere a man, so he can't be too much taller.\n\n There are two places where Sev says that Jonas was the same sort of\nandroid as Sidero: _Urth_, chapter VIII; \"Sidero was an android, then, an\nautomaton in human form such as my friend Jonas had once been.\" And, chapter\nXIII; \"Sidero had been joined by two slender automatons, such creatures as I\nbelieve Jonas must once have been. It's stated twice. This second one must\nbe the moment you were referring to.\n\n BTW, I forgot to mention another named android on the ship, Zelezo. The\nword, in Czech, means, you guessed it, \"iron\".\n\n As long as I'm out here on this limb, I may as well see if it will bear\na little more weight: I suggest that Jonas, at some \"time\", sailed on\nTzadkiel's ship. Further, he may have been aboard *at the same \"time\" as the\nblackout*. The textual support comes from chapter XVI of _Claw_.\n\n Remember the change in personality that Jonas affects after being\n\"zapped\" by the electrical charge from the \"whips\" of the juvenile\ndelinquents while in the Antechamber? He seems dazed and later fears he's\ngoing \"sane\". (He's an android; his electrical components have been zapped.)\nHe mutters:\n\n\"We must get power to the compressors before the air goes bad.\" Then:\n\n\"I feel weight!\" His voice was growing louder. \"It must be only the lights.\"\n\n Sounds like someone on a spaceship during an electrical failure and\nblackout to me. Why else would Wolfe put it in? Also, any objections to this\nidea based on what little background Jonas gives about his past life are\ncountered by this statement of Sev's: (_Urth_, chapter XI)\n\n\"'As the viper told the sow.' So a man called Jonas used to say. He was a\nsailor too, Purn, but as quick to lie as you are.\"\n\n One of those lies may have been his name. Jonas knows more of Urth's\npast than Sev. He was familiar with the Odyssey, which antedates the Book of\nJonah. He may have felt justified in borrowing his name from the latter.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-27T10:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: More on Iron Men", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\nTony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. Sidero is a completely different kind of android to Jonas. The mere\nfact that Severian can climb inside him tells us that he is far more\nbulky than a human being. There is also moment in UOTNS when Severian\nactually sees two androids of Jonas's make.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Yes, Sidero is obviously larger than Sev, but not \"far more bulky than a\nhuman being.\" In chapter II Sev describes him as \"... a figure that might\nhave been that of a massive man in armor complete.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't have it both ways, you know :-). If Sidero is the size of a\nmassive man in armour, he is by definition far bulkier than a human\nbeing. He isn't just the size of a massive man, he's the size of a full\nsuit of armour big enough for that massive man to wear. That's pretty\nbulky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " There are two places where Sev says that Jonas was the same sort of\nandroid as Sidero: _Urth_, chapter VIII; \"Sidero was an android, then, an\nautomaton in human form such as my friend Jonas had once been.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh-uh. He isn't saying Sidero is the same -kind- of android as Jonas,\nmerely that -like- Jonas, Sidero is an android too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...And, chapter\nXIII; \"Sidero had been joined by two slender automatons, such creatures as I\nbelieve Jonas must once have been. It's stated twice. This second one must\nbe the moment you were referring to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just so. Two -slender- automatons. Not two automatons the size of\nmassive men in full armour. Severian isn't saying that Jonas was the\nsame sort of android as Sidero, he's saying that he was the same sort of\nandroid as the slender pair that he can now see beside Sidero, which are\nclearly of a different design." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-04-27T16:28:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: re: More on Iron Men", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nYou can't have it both ways, you know :-). If Sidero is the size of a\nmassive man in armour, he is by definition far bulkier than a human\nbeing. He isn't just the size of a massive man, he's the size of a full\nsuit of armour big enough for that massive man to wear. That's pretty\nbulky.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Uh-uh. He isn't saying Sidero is the same -kind- of android as Jonas,\nmerely that -like- Jonas, Sidero is an android too.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just so. Two -slender- automatons. Not two automatons the size of\nmassive men in full armour. Severian isn't saying that Jonas was the\nsame sort of android as Sidero, he's saying that he was the same sort of\nandroid as the slender pair that he can now see beside Sidero, which are\nclearly of a different design.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Uh, if I \"can't have it both ways, you know\", then neither can you! \nIf the first citation merely establishes that Jonas was an android, not that\nhe was the same size as Sidero, then the same logic applies to the second\ncitation; it was merely reinforcing the fact that Jonas was an android, not\nthat he was the same size as the other two androids. \"Such\" and \"as\" are the\nterms used in both descriptions.\n\n BTW, I went back through all the places in _Shadow_ and _Claw_ with\nJonas in them and could find no reference to his height, which is odd in\nitself, as Sev often makes note of the relative height of other characters.\n\nRoy" } ] } ] }