{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1586", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1586, "subject": "Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "messages": 11, "voices": 5, "first": "1999-04-28T00:51:23+00:00", "last": "1999-04-30T00:18:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-04-28T00:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\n\n\"Using the author's biography and alleged intent to interpret a novel can\nbe interesting, but I prefer interpretations that stand on their own\nsupport from the text.\n\nYou may end up dismissing some interesting questions if you assume that\nbecause Wolfe is Catholic, Tzad is an angel and therefore a good guy.\"\n\nI just wanted to second Rostrum's eloquent and elegant defense of a textual\nreading of Wolfe's work. Nonetheless, Nicholas Gevers' and Alex David\nGroce's advocacy of a Christian or specifically Roman Catholic reading of\nWolfe's book have raised the spectre in my mind of my being told off by Gene\nWolfe, in a scene not unlike Marshall McLuhan reading the riot act to the\nblowhard in \"Annie Hall\", that I have missed the point of his work\ncompletely.\n\nAny interpretation of TBOTNS or UOTNS, whether secular, religious, or in\nbetween, can only serve to increase the enjoyment the reader can get out of\nthe series. I offer the following analysis not as a definitive agrument but\nmerely as something to be considered in the continuing debate.\n\nThe prevalence of Christian iconography and fragments or echoes of the\nChristian story (no disrespect intended by these words, but I am not a\nbeliever) invites the reader to map, to some degree, Sev's story over the\nlife of Jesus; but the very fact that Sev exists, and the destruction which\nSev ultimately unleashes, is a complete refutation of every key Christian\nprophesy.\n\nLet's start from the beginning. The Urth of TBOTNS is one where\nChristianity has obviously completely failed. If we accept Sev's narrative\nas a fair survey of Commonwealth and Ascian society, none of them have even\nheard of Jesus Chirst. None of them can be said to be saved, or even\ncapable of being saved; no one is witness to the crucifixion, death and\nresurrection. To the extent that Christianity can be said to survive at all\nit is as fragments, a detrius of images and concepts joining the Greek and\nHindu gods in the compost heap of Urth culture. Needless to say, the end of\nhumanity is horrific, but it doesn't follow the plan laid out in the Book of\nRevelations, and Jesus doesn't return at the end of it. Furthermore, with\nthe coming of the New Sun, humanity is about to effectively evolve into\nGreen Men. Are they covered by Original Sin? I mean, they're practically a\ndifferent species.\n\nI think that Gene Wolfe attempted to tackle this thorny theological problem\nin UOTNS. Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his \"adventures\" with\nSev:\n\n\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"\n\nNow, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this would\nserve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and the future\nwill play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's universe, which,\nI am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all.\nBut this side-stepping of the issue actually creates a thornier problem than\nbefore. The problem has two parts: The first is, if Jesus never showed up\nin Sev's universe, then the population of Sev's universe are either unfallen\n(unlikely) or fallen and never redeemed by the Son of God. Why this\nuniverse should be so bereft is a divine mystery beyond me, but it is\ninteresting that in the absence of their ever experiencing Christianity the\npopulation of Sev's universe seem no better or worse than our own. The\nsecond part of the problem is that in the \"Key to the Universe\" chapter in\nCitadel, Sev is told on good authority that \"As the flower that comes is\nlike the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the\none whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as\nof its grosser ones ... though just as the flower evolves from summer to\nsummer, all things advance by some minute step.\"\n\nIf my supposition is correct that Tzad's quote is meant to refer to our\nuniverse (with Christ) vs. Sev's universe (without), does that mean the\nabsence of the Chistian religion in Sev's universe is a mark of that\nprogression?\n\nThese comments are in no way meant to criticize anyone's religion, and I\ncertainly would not want to seem to put words into Mr. Wolfe's mouth which\nare obviously diametrically opposed to his stated beliefs. The above\nproblem is the result of the author (allegedly) using allegorical techniques\nto convery religious information in a non-allegorical, or concrete, setting.\nTake a look at the works of C.S. Lewis, for example; on the one hand the\n\"Narnia\" series is theoretically supposed to be a young person's primer on\nChristian belief; on the other hand, whenever the Narnia kids get into\ntrouble they don't call on Christ but on a *talking lion*. I guess you can\ncall it the Golden Calf Syndrome; the metaphor is always at risk of being\nmistaken for what it is meant to represent. This is also called idolotry.\n\nMuch safer, I believe, to stick with a materialistic interpretation of the\ntext." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-28T12:18:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nI just wanted to second Rostrum's eloquent and elegant defense of a textual\nreading of Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thirded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"\n\nNow, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this would\nserve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and the future\nwill play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's universe, which,\nI am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand why you think Sev's universe can't be ours. The\n\"creation now vanished\" Tzad is talking about is his own universe -\nwhich may or may not be the same as ours and Sev's, it doesn't really\nmatter. How does its having a Conciliator and a New Sun mean that Sev's\ncan't have a Christ? Sorry if I'm being thick." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-28T08:36:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) re: Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Tony Ellis wrote:\n\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"\n\nNow, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this would\nserve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and the future\nwill play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's universe, which,\nI am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand why you think Sev's universe can't be ours. The\n\"creation now vanished\" Tzad is talking about is his own universe -\nwhich may or may not be the same as ours and Sev's, it doesn't really\nmatter. How does its having a Conciliator and a New Sun mean that Sev's\ncan't have a Christ? Sorry if I'm being thick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For most of the series, I assumed that the \"Conciliator\" was a set of\npoorly-remembered stories of Jesus (I forget how I fit Typhon's statements\ninto that interpretation), so I was surprised in URTH to find that the\nConciliator was Severian, and was someone far in Jesus's future, if there\neven as a Jesus in Severian's world.\n\nWhen I read the passage quoted above, I interpreted it, as Ori does, to be\nWolfe's coy way of refering to Jesus. If Jesus had existed in Severian's\nuniverse, I'd expect Tzad to say something like, \"there was another sort\nof Concilator earlier in your world's history, although we didn't call him\nthat.\" \n\nOr are you suggesting that Tzad isn't referring to Jesus at all, but\nrather yet another \"conciliator\" figure in a different universe who is\nneither a version of Severian nor Jesus?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-04-28T13:26:55+00:00", "subject": "re: Re: (urth) re: Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nOr are you suggesting that Tzad isn't referring to Jesus at all, but\nrather yet another \"conciliator\" figure in a different universe who is\nneither a version of Severian nor Jesus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost. The Conciliator is Christ-like, but he's not Christ. So when\nTzad talks about a Conciliator in his universe he -is- talking about\nanother Severian, but not another Christ. As I see it.\n\nThe alternative is to assume that somehow Sev's Earth can have had a\nhistory identical to ours to the point of having a NASA-style man on the\nMoon, another St Catherine, another Jungle Book, another Edward\nFitzgerald's translation of Omar Khyam and even another Frankenstein,\nall without ever having had a Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-28T11:23:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 28, 12:51am, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?\nRostrum wrote:\n\n\"Using the author's biography and alleged intent to interpret a novel can\nbe interesting, but I prefer interpretations that stand on their own\nsupport from the text.\n\nYou may end up dismissing some interesting questions if you assume that\nbecause Wolfe is Catholic, Tzad is an angel and therefore a good guy.\"\n\nI just wanted to second Rostrum's eloquent and elegant defense of a textual\nreading of Wolfe's work. Nonetheless, Nicholas Gevers' and Alex David\nGroce's advocacy of a Christian or specifically Roman Catholic reading of\nWolfe's book have raised the spectre in my mind of my being told off by Gene\nWolfe, in a scene not unlike Marshall McLuhan reading the riot act to the\nblowhard in \"Annie Hall\", that I have missed the point of his work\ncompletely.\n\nAny interpretation of TBOTNS or UOTNS, whether secular, religious, or in\nbetween, can only serve to increase the enjoyment the reader can get out of\nthe series. I offer the following analysis not as a definitive agrument but\nmerely as something to be considered in the continuing debate.\n\nThe prevalence of Christian iconography and fragments or echoes of the\nChristian story (no disrespect intended by these words, but I am not a\nbeliever) invites the reader to map, to some degree, Sev's story over the\nlife of Jesus; but the very fact that Sev exists, and the destruction which\nSev ultimately unleashes, is a complete refutation of every key Christian\nprophesy.\n\nLet's start from the beginning. The Urth of TBOTNS is one where\nChristianity has obviously completely failed. If we accept Sev's narrative\nas a fair survey of Commonwealth and Ascian society, none of them have even\nheard of Jesus Chirst. None of them can be said to be saved, or even\ncapable of being saved; no one is witness to the crucifixion, death and\nresurrection. To the extent that Christianity can be said to survive at all\nit is as fragments, a detrius of images and concepts joining the Greek and\nHindu gods in the compost heap of Urth culture. Needless to say, the end of\nhumanity is horrific, but it doesn't follow the plan laid out in the Book of\nRevelations, and Jesus doesn't return at the end of it. Furthermore, with\nthe coming of the New Sun, humanity is about to effectively evolve into\nGreen Men. Are they covered by Original Sin? I mean, they're practically a\ndifferent species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, now this is interesting. I think that when you noted a materialistic\nexplanation, I assume you meant an interpretation that just ignored/avoided the\ntheological overtones. Which to me is textually out-of-question--there are too\nmany clear references to Christianity to have that not come out as a \"yes, but\nyou've ignored the white whale, Sir\" explanation of Moby Dick.\n\n\tThe question is, does the BOTNS necessarily mean Christianity has\ncompletely failed in Urth? Well, as far as being a clearly present religion,\nyes. However, the church invisible, as I understand it, can continue even if\nthe visible church has vanished--and as I see it, the patterning of Severian's\nlife after both Christic and, as importantly, maybe, Apostolic, events\nindicates that the Increate (guess who?) is still working through human\nhistory. I will be honest and say that in my interpretation, the New Sun is\nnot the end of history, which in this universe may well (I suspect would be)\nthe end of Christian revelation. In what sense is the New Sun an\neschatological completion? It's the opposite--it starts things up, and\nprevents the icy/entropy future of Abaia & co. The New Sun is analogous to\nRevelation and Second Coming, but it isn't the same thing. It's a (here I\nagree with you) primarily material rescue--the spiritual end being the wiping\nclean of the dying culture of Urth. Things are just starting up again on Urth,\nand where the Green Men will go from there is anybody's guess. And I'd say\nthat the Green Men are \"man\" and probably, in Wolfe's schema, covered by\noriginal sin. A stage in evolution wouldn't make us gods or angels, and\nphotosynthesis doesn't really impact metaphysically.\n\n\tFor me, the best indication that Urth IS our universe, and Christianity\nis, while not exactly filling the pews, still around in the important sense, i\nin Long Sun. Silk, it seems to me, has been contacted by the Outsider as part\nof a revelation that is to (A) as in the BOTNS, save everybody's skins from a\nmaterially killing end, and (B) to slowly restore Christianity. The voided\ncrosses, the images Silk sees, the direct reference to a man crucified--these\nseem to me to be sufficient evidence to place it all in our universe (since\nLong Sun and New Sun are surely the same universe!)\n\tBoth stories to me seem to be about historical, physical actions saving\nmankind or some subset thereof from material disaster, but the underlying\npatterns of the salvation are such that it is difficult not to see signs of a\nhistorically active God--specifically, the Christian God. In fact, the\nnon-existence of an active Christianity reinforces the theological explanation\nof the BOTNS--if the heiros were devout Catholics they might have motives in\nmaking Severian's life analogous to Christ's, in arranging for him to imitate\nPeter by raising a woman named Dorcas, etc. But they don't seem to be. So,\nthe patterning of Severian's life is best explained as the hand of the\nIncreate, working through the physical world and, specifically, that rascal\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that Gene Wolfe attempted to tackle this thorny theological problem\nin UOTNS. Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his \"adventures\" with\nSev:\n\n\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"\n\nNow, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this would\nserve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and the future\nwill play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's universe, which,\nI am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all.\nBut this side-stepping of the issue actually creates a thornier problem than\nbefore. The problem has two parts: The first is, if Jesus never showed up\nin Sev's universe, then the population of Sev's universe are either unfallen\n(unlikely) or fallen and never redeemed by the Son of God. Why this\nuniverse should be so bereft is a divine mystery beyond me, but it is\ninteresting that in the absence of their ever experiencing Christianity the\npopulation of Sev's universe seem no better or worse than our own. The\nsecond part of the problem is that in the \"Key to the Universe\" chapter in\nCitadel, Sev is told on good authority that \"As the flower that comes is\nlike the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the\none whose ruin was its origin; and this is as true of its finer features as\nof its grosser ones ... though just as the flower evolves from summer to\nsummer, all things advance by some minute step.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAn interesting speculation--of course, there's my extra-textual reason\nfor doubting Wolfe would imply that (in fact, doubting Wolfe would imply a\nuniverse without Christ in it), but my reasons for thinking the BOTNS universe\nis probably ours are given above (and such little correspondences as teh\nastronaut on the moon).\n\tSo, I'd say Sev. wasn't present in the other universe, since Sev. was\nthe Concilliator, but Christ was, as He is is Sev's universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If my supposition is correct that Tzad's quote is meant to refer to our\nuniverse (with Christ) vs. Sev's universe (without), does that mean the\nabsence of the Chistian religion in Sev's universe is a mark of that\nprogression?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where I don't see (whether it's our universe or not) it being absent-Long Sun\nseems to clearly (even more so than New Sun, where God's the only one\nremembering Christianity in a sense) indicate a human recollection of the\nIncarnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These comments are in no way meant to criticize anyone's religion, and I\ncertainly would not want to seem to put words into Mr. Wolfe's mouth which\nare obviously diametrically opposed to his stated beliefs. The above\nproblem is the result of the author (allegedly) using allegorical techniques\nto convery religious information in a non-allegorical, or concrete, setting.\nTake a look at the works of C.S. Lewis, for example; on the one hand the\n\"Narnia\" series is theoretically supposed to be a young person's primer on\nChristian belief; on the other hand, whenever the Narnia kids get into\ntrouble they don't call on Christ but on a *talking lion*. I guess you can\ncall it the Golden Calf Syndrome; the metaphor is always at risk of being\nmistaken for what it is meant to represent. This is also called idolotry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYeah, but I doubt many kids end up worshipping a talking lion. BOTNS\nruns little risk, at least, of setting up Severian as an idol--since he's no\nrole-model, and (in his best trait) tends to put all the credit in the\nIncreate's hands. Of course, if you think the ice future is better, and the\nNew Sun is a Bad Thing, that's another matter, but from a material prospective,\nsurely a new chance is better than Ragnarok?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much safer, I believe, to stick with a materialistic interpretation of the\ntext." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tSafer, maybe, but leaves a lot of stuff unexplained--such as the\nunderlying pattern of Severian's whole mission--why, exactly, in a material\ninterpretation (particularly one without a Christ in the universe's history),\ndoes Severian's life echo Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts? Are the hieros\nplaying a wierd literary game?\n\n\nB" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-04-28T10:53:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:23 AM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The New Sun is analogous to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Revelation and Second Coming, but it isn't the same thing. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI've been too busy to keep up with everything on this list -- I have a\nhuge backlog of posts to read! But I do have a comment here. The coming of\nthe New Sun is analogous to the Flood, not the end of history. Also,\nanalogous to the First Coming, not the Second Coming, of the Messiah. The\ngreen man, I submit, is the Christian world, where Eden begins to be\nrestored. The reason Christianity is not visible in the Commonwealth is\nthat, in essence, the Commonwealth is pre-Christian.\n\tNow, to be sure, this future is actually post-Christian, as the scene of\nthe protestant missionaries shows us. But the story as it actually unfolds\nis much more of a recap of the scaffolding of Bible history than of Bible\neschatology. I'd say that the first coming of the Conciliator is not so\nmuch analogous to the first coming of Christ as to the coming of Yahweh\n(who, in Christianity, is the preincarnate Jesus) to Israel at Mount Sinai,\nor to Abraham at the beginning of the covenant history. Then promises were\nmade; now they are fulfilled and a new world begins. Note in the New\nTestament that as the Gospel arrives, Jerusalem is completely destroyed,\nand the language in Matthew 24 and other places speaks of this as a new\nflood. As Jesus wept over Jerusalem, so Severian is nonplussed by the\ndestruction his new world brings with it.\n\tRemember that Severian is not a Christ, but a \"Christian figure.\" The\nChristian is supposed to be LIKE Jesus and do similar things, extending the\nKingdom into history. Thus, what Severian does is like what Jesus DID, not\nlike what Jesus WILL DO -- if you catch my drift. Accordingly, Wolfe's\nfuture history shows a renewal of the first coming of Christ, not an\narrival of His second coming.\n\tUnlike the Silk narrative, where there are scores of very clear and\ndeliberate parallels with the gospel narrative, the Severian narrative is\nmore vague. But note these parallels: Jesus serves as a servant, and then\nis made king. He ascends into heaven, and then 40 years later \"returns\" to\ndestroy Jerusalem and usher in the clarified new order. This final coming\nis at the end of the world. I submit that this is the scaffolding of the\nSeverian narrative also.\n\tAlso, while many modern people take the book of Revelation as a prediction\nof catastrophes at the end of history, many interpreters (myself included)\nbelieve most of the book deals with the first century. The Beast of\nRevelation is the Roman Empire. If Wolfe shares this more traditional view,\nand as an R.C. I'll bet he does, then the destruction of Abaia, etc. links\nthe with destruction of the Beast in Revelation: Rome. So then, not the\nsecond coming, but the final events of the first coming are in view in the\nUrth of the New Sun.\n\tThat would be my preferred interpretation, and I think it resolves the\nproblems you wrestled with.\n\nJBJordan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-29T09:49:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. The reply I was working on to Ori has been made redundant by\nJonathan Laidlow who summed up what I was trying to say with this: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, the discussion over whether Christianity every existed on Urth is \nto me, a non-starter. Urth is never presented as a literal \ncontinuation of Earth history, but a post-historical, mythological \npoint where Earth's stories retell themselves in exciting ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I'll just add a few minor observations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nTake a look at the works of C.S. Lewis, for example; on the one hand the\n\"Narnia\" series is theoretically supposed to be a young person's primer on\nChristian belief; on the other hand, whenever the Narnia kids get into\ntrouble they don't call on Christ but on a *talking lion*. I guess you can\ncall it the Golden Calf Syndrome; the metaphor is always at risk of being\nmistaken for what it is meant to represent. This is also called idolotry.\nI think that Gene Wolfe attempted to tackle this thorny theological problem\nin UOTNS. Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his \"adventures\" with\nSev:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lewis, unlike Wolfe, was writing a sort of \"literal continuation of Earth\nhistory\" with the Narnia and Space Trilogy books. The books speculate\n\"What if there were other worlds? Given what Christians believe, how\nmight God interact with them?\" Aslan is not a metaphor for Jesus, he IS\nthe Second Person of the Trinity incarnate as a lion. He does not die for\nNarnia as a sneaky way of retelling the story of Jesus, Aslan dies for\nNarnia because Lewis thought that was how God would redeem a world of\ntalking animals. (I think Lewis must have realized that this implies a\nheretical view of the incarnation because his speculations are more\nsophisticated and more orthodox in the Space Trilogy.)\n\nI don't think \"metaphor\" or \"allegory\" either one describe very well what\nWolfe is doing. I think Jonathan's description is much better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this passage is a wink at the reader, Wolfe acknowledging that\nSeverian plays a role similar to that of Jesus (and perhaps that Tzad\nplays a role similar to the angels who ministered to him). TBOTNS is a\nstory alluding to the story of Jesus and to other stories. To try to\nplace Jesus within TBOTNS is a category mistake. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this\nwould serve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and\nthe future will play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's\nuniverse, which, I am disappointed to discover five books into the\nstory, is not ours at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hate to break this to you Ori, but not only is TBOTNS not our universe,\nI'm pretty sure Wolfe made the whole thing up.\n\nSeriously, Wolfe's playful appendicies where he talks about translating a\nmanuscript from the future are a kind of parody of the attempt to fit\nWolfe's story into our world's history. They serve to highlight the fact\nthat Urth is a fiction, that this is a story about stories. Again see\nJonathan's post for a better explanation.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-29T11:12:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 29, 9:49am, Michael Straight wrote:\nSubject: Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?\nHeh. The reply I was working on to Ori has been made redundant by\nJonathan Laidlow who summed up what I was trying to say with this: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, the discussion over whether Christianity every existed on Urth is \nto me, a non-starter. Urth is never presented as a literal \ncontinuation of Earth history, but a post-historical, mythological \npoint where Earth's stories retell themselves in exciting ways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I'll just add a few minor observations.\n\nOn Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Ori Kowarsky wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Take a look at the works of C.S. Lewis, for example; on the one hand the\n\"Narnia\" series is theoretically supposed to be a young person's primer on\nChristian belief; on the other hand, whenever the Narnia kids get into\ntrouble they don't call on Christ but on a *talking lion*. I guess you can\ncall it the Golden Calf Syndrome; the metaphor is always at risk of being\nmistaken for what it is meant to represent. This is also called idolotry.\nI think that Gene Wolfe attempted to tackle this thorny theological problem\nin UOTNS. Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his \"adventures\" with\nSev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lewis, unlike Wolfe, was writing a sort of \"literal continuation of Earth\nhistory\" with the Narnia and Space Trilogy books. The books speculate\n\"What if there were other worlds? Given what Christians believe, how\nmight God interact with them?\" Aslan is not a metaphor for Jesus, he IS\nthe Second Person of the Trinity incarnate as a lion. He does not die for\nNarnia as a sneaky way of retelling the story of Jesus, Aslan dies for\nNarnia because Lewis thought that was how God would redeem a world of\ntalking animals. (I think Lewis must have realized that this implies a\nheretical view of the incarnation because his speculations are more\nsophisticated and more orthodox in the Space Trilogy.)\n\nI don't think \"metaphor\" or \"allegory\" either one describe very well what\nWolfe is doing. I think Jonathan's description is much better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,\nif they could? Stand beside him when he was in danger? Care for him,\nperhaps, when he was ill? I have been such an acylote, in a creation now\nvanished. In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did\nnot use those names.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this passage is a wink at the reader, Wolfe acknowledging that\nSeverian plays a role similar to that of Jesus (and perhaps that Tzad\nplays a role similar to the angels who ministered to him). TBOTNS is a\nstory alluding to the story of Jesus and to other stories. To try to\nplace Jesus within TBOTNS is a category mistake. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this\nwould serve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and\nthe future will play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's\nuniverse, which, I am disappointed to discover five books into the\nstory, is not ours at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hate to break this to you Ori, but not only is TBOTNS not our universe,\nI'm pretty sure Wolfe made the whole thing up.\n\nSeriously, Wolfe's playful appendicies where he talks about translating a\nmanuscript from the future are a kind of parody of the attempt to fit\nWolfe's story into our world's history. They serve to highlight the fact\nthat Urth is a fiction, that this is a story about stories. Again see\nJonathan's post for a better explanation.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tPartial agreement on my part, but very partial if you mean what you\nseem to mean; sure, Wolfe is a modernist, and almost all of his major works\nare, to some extent, metafictional commentaries on the stories that shape\nfiction. However, Wolfe's metafictions strongly imply that to a great extent\nour lives, in \"reality,\" are shaped by stories--this is certainly his stance in\nhis nonfiction. So, to say that Wolfe is a modernist does not imply that\nreading metaphysical and religious implications into his works is off-base.\nAfter all, T. S. Eliot is rather THE modernist, but to suggest that because\nthey are (A) reworkings of numerous themes from other sources and (B)\ncommentaries on the art of poetry doesn't mean that THE WASTE LAND and FOUR\nQUARTETS have no religious or metaphysical implications. \n\tI would argue that any commentary on the nature of \"story\" or \"art\" is,\nby necessity, a commentary on the nature of the real world as well. Wolfe\nclearly worked hard to build a consistent and plausible world for Severian and\nhis attendant texts to move in. It's hardly futile to argue about the meanings\nor the science-fictional details of that well-built world." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-04-29T16:10:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Alex David Groce wrote:\n\tPartial agreement on my part, but very partial if you mean what you\nseem to mean; sure, Wolfe is a modernist, and almost all of his major works\nare, to some extent, metafictional commentaries on the stories that shape\nfiction. However, Wolfe's metafictions strongly imply that to a great extent\nour lives, in \"reality,\" are shaped by stories--this is certainly his stance in\nhis nonfiction. So, to say that Wolfe is a modernist does not imply that\nreading metaphysical and religious implications into his works is off-base.\nAfter all, T. S. Eliot is rather THE modernist, but to suggest that because\nthey are (A) reworkings of numerous themes from other sources and (B)\ncommentaries on the art of poetry doesn't mean that THE WASTE LAND and FOUR\nQUARTETS have no religious or metaphysical implications. \n\tI would argue that any commentary on the nature of \"story\" or \"art\" is,\nby necessity, a commentary on the nature of the real world as well. Wolfe\nclearly worked hard to build a consistent and plausible world for Severian and\nhis attendant texts to move in. It's hardly futile to argue about the meanings\nor the science-fictional details of that well-built world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Wolfe were writing in the same way as Lewis, that is, in a future meant\nto be a literal extension of ours, then it would make sense to ask, \"If\nTzad is really an Angel of God, why doesn't he tell Severian about Jesus\nand the True Catholic Faith?\"\n\nI'm arguing that that sort of question would be a category mistake.\nBecause Wolfe is not trying to imagine how the story of Christ and his\nChurch might extend into the future, rather he is telling a story that is\na sort of image or icon of the story of Christ. The picture is not equal\nto the thing it pictures. That doesn't mean the religious or metaphysical\nideas pictured are not important, it just means that the pictures should\nnot be confused with the thing itself.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-04-29T18:45:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex David Groce wrote:\nAh, now this is interesting. I think that when you noted a materialistic\nexplanation, I assume you meant an interpretation that just ignored/avoided\nthe\ntheological overtones. Which to me is textually out-of-question--there are\ntoo\nmany clear references to Christianity to have that not come out as a \"yes,\nbut\nyou've ignored the white whale, Sir\" explanation of Moby Dick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're talking to cross-purposes here. The fact that bits and pieces\nof the Christian story crop up in TBOTNS may mean nothing more than that\nChristianity was once part of the culture, once informed its myths and\nlegends, and still remains in the form of a half -remembered cultural\nsubstrate. If by \"theological overtones\" you mean that physical miracles\nare happening, then we'll have to agree to disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is, does the BOTNS necessarily mean Christianity has\ncompletely failed in Urth? Well, as far as being a clearly present\nreligion,\nyes. However, the church invisible, as I understand it, can continue even\nif\nthe visible church has vanished--and as I see it, the patterning of\nSeverian's" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, I don't know what \"the church invisible\" is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "life after both Christic and, as importantly, maybe, Apostolic, events" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severain is a torturer who goes on a journey to his new place of work, on\nthe way he picks up a gem which appears to have magic powers, meets a\nvariety of people, arrives at his job, leaves his job, goes to war, becomes\nan emperor. Which book of the New Testament should I pick up to compare\nthese events with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In what sense is the New Sun an\neschatological completion? It's the opposite--it starts things up, and\nprevents the icy/entropy future of Abaia & co." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the Undines *help* Sev, and if one Undine survives in Ushas, who is to\nsay that Erebus and Abaia don't as well? It seems to me that these gigantic\nbeings who have to live underwater to support their mass benefit more from a\nworld that is mostly warm water than a giant snowball in space. Wouldn't\nRagnarock be the end of them too?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and where the Green Men will go from there is anybody's guess. And I'd\nsay\nthat the Green Men are \"man\" and probably, in Wolfe's schema, covered by\noriginal sin. A stage in evolution wouldn't make us gods or angels, and\nphotosynthesis doesn't really impact metaphysically." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, actually, we do know where they go; if they are the heirs of hmanity\nthen they are a way-station on the way to becoming Hieros; and if, as I\nthink you believe, Hieros are angels, apparently you *can* evolve out of\nOriginal Sin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, the best indication that Urth IS our universe, and Christianity\nis, while not exactly filling the pews, still around in the important\nsense, i\nin Long Sun. Silk, it seems to me, has been contacted by the Outsider as\npart\nof a revelation that is to (A) as in the BOTNS, save everybody's skins from\na\nmaterially killing end, and (B) to slowly restore Christianity. The voided\ncrosses, the images Silk sees, the direct reference to a man\ncrucified--these\nseem to me to be sufficient evidence to place it all in our universe (since\nLong Sun and New Sun are surely the same universe!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand what you mean by point (A). Did not the coming of the\nNew Sun kill every human on the planet save a few here and there? Oh, and\nthe genetic breeding stock thoughtfully supplied by the Hieros. As for\npoint (B), Silk cannot restore Christianity unless he knows what it is;\nthat involves somehow learning about, and then believeing in, the death,\nresurrection, etc. Until Silk (or Sev) starts witnessing, again, we're\ngoing to have to agree to disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both stories to me seem to be about historical, physical actions saving\nmankind or some subset thereof from material disaster, but the underlying\npatterns of the salvation are such that it is difficult not to see signs of\na\nhistorically active God--specifically, the Christian God. In fact, the" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are these underlying patterns of salvation? In UOTNS the survivors\nare: Sev, an undine, two men and two women of indeterminate character, who\nmay be very nice people, but are not Christians because they don't believe\nin Christ. The underlying pattern of salvation that I see is that human\nbeings apparently chosen (or bred) for some purpose have been deposited by\nthe Hieros on the planet after the original population has been\nexterminated. I certainly hope that this isn't a sign of the Christian God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "non-existence of an active Christianity reinforces the theological\nexplanation\nof the BOTNS--if the heiros were devout Catholics they might have motives\nin\nmaking Severian's life analogous to Christ's, in arranging for him to\nimitate\nPeter by raising a woman named Dorcas, etc. But they don't seem to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the patterning of Severian's life is best explained as the hand of the\nIncreate, working through the physical world and, specifically, that rascal\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, at least we can agree that Sev is a puppet of *somebody's*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where I don't see (whether it's our universe or not) it being absent-Long\nSun\nseems to clearly (even more so than New Sun, where God's the only one\nremembering Christianity in a sense) indicate a human recollection of the\nIncarnation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Because of the voided crosses?\n\n\n(re: Narnia)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but I doubt many kids end up worshipping a talking lion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are incorrect. Studies have shown that children who read Narnia grow up\nto become adolescents who read Tolkien. Adolescents who read Tolkien become\nteenagers who listen to heavy metal music. Teenagers who listen to heavy\nmetal music will inevitably fall under the spell of the leonine-maned Ted\nNugent's \"Cat Scratch Fever\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Increate's hands. Of course, if you think the ice future is better, and\nthe\nNew Sun is a Bad Thing, that's another matter, but from a material\nprospective,\nsurely a new chance is better than Ragnarok?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A new chance for whom? 99.99% of the planet is dead! The choice between\nUshas may be the lesser of two evils, but that shouldn't blind us to the\nfact that it *is* evil." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-04-30T00:18:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, given Sev's career with war and women, plus the trajectory of his\nlife taking him from out of nowhere and dropping him in the throne of a\nmighty empire at war, isn't Sev more of a Mohammed-analogue?\n\nOri" } ] } ] }