Subject: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?

From: Ori Kowarsky <orik at sprint.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:51:23 +0000

Rostrum wrote:

"Using the author's biography and alleged intent to interpret a novel can
be interesting, but I prefer interpretations that stand on their own
support from the text.

You may end up dismissing some interesting questions if you assume that
because Wolfe is Catholic, Tzad is an angel and therefore a good guy."

I just wanted to second Rostrum's eloquent and elegant defense of a textual
reading of Wolfe's work.  Nonetheless, Nicholas Gevers' and Alex David
Groce's advocacy of a Christian or specifically Roman Catholic reading of
Wolfe's book have raised the spectre in my mind of my being told off by Gene
Wolfe, in a scene not unlike Marshall McLuhan reading the riot act to the
blowhard in "Annie Hall", that I have missed the point of his work
completely.

Any interpretation of TBOTNS or UOTNS, whether secular, religious, or in
between, can only serve to increase the enjoyment the reader can get out of
the series.  I offer the following analysis not as a definitive agrument but
merely as something to be considered in the continuing debate.

The prevalence of Christian iconography and fragments or echoes of the
Christian story (no disrespect intended by these words, but I am not a
believer) invites the reader to map, to some degree, Sev's story over the
life of Jesus;  but the very fact that Sev exists, and the destruction which
Sev ultimately unleashes, is a complete refutation of every key Christian
prophesy.

Let's start from the beginning.  The Urth of TBOTNS is one where
Christianity has obviously completely failed.  If we accept Sev's narrative
as a fair survey of Commonwealth and Ascian society, none of them have even
heard of Jesus Chirst.  None of them can be said to be saved, or even
capable of being saved;  no one is witness to the crucifixion, death and
resurrection.  To the extent that Christianity can be said to survive at all
it is as fragments, a detrius of images and concepts joining the Greek and
Hindu gods in the compost heap of Urth culture.  Needless to say, the end of
humanity is horrific, but it doesn't follow the plan laid out in the Book of
Revelations, and Jesus doesn't return at the end of it.  Furthermore, with
the coming of the New Sun, humanity is about to effectively evolve into
Green Men.  Are they covered by Original Sin?  I mean, they're practically a
different species.

I think that Gene Wolfe attempted to tackle this thorny theological problem
in UOTNS.  Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his "adventures" with
Sev:

"[speaking of the Conciliator] Would they not have wished to walk with him,
if they could?  Stand beside him when he was in danger?  Care for him,
perhaps, when he was ill?  I have been such an acylote, in a creation now
vanished.  In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did
not use those names."

Now, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this would
serve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and the future
will play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's universe, which,
I am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all.
But this side-stepping of the issue actually creates a thornier problem than
before.  The problem has two parts:  The first is, if Jesus never showed up
in Sev's universe, then the population of Sev's universe are either unfallen
(unlikely) or fallen and never redeemed by the Son of God.  Why this
universe should be so bereft is a divine mystery beyond me, but it is
interesting that in the absence of their ever experiencing Christianity the
population of Sev's universe seem no better or worse than our own.  The
second part of the problem is that in the "Key to the Universe" chapter in
Citadel, Sev is told on good authority that "As the flower that comes is
like the flower from which it came, so the universe that comes repeats the
one whose ruin was its origin;  and this is as true of its finer features as
of its grosser ones ... though just as the flower evolves from summer to
summer, all things advance by some minute step."

If my supposition is correct that Tzad's quote is meant to refer to our
universe (with Christ) vs. Sev's universe (without), does that mean the
absence of the Chistian religion in Sev's universe is a mark of that
progression?

These comments are in no way meant to criticize anyone's religion, and I
certainly would not want to seem to put words into Mr. Wolfe's mouth which
are obviously diametrically opposed to his stated beliefs.  The above
problem is the result of the author (allegedly) using allegorical techniques
to convery religious information in a non-allegorical, or concrete, setting.
Take a look at the works of C.S. Lewis, for example;  on the one hand the
"Narnia" series is theoretically supposed to be a young person's primer on
Christian belief;  on the other hand, whenever the Narnia kids get into
trouble they don't call on Christ but on a *talking lion*.  I guess you can
call it the Golden Calf Syndrome;  the metaphor is always at risk of being
mistaken for what it is meant to represent.  This is also called idolotry.

Much safer, I believe, to stick with a materialistic interpretation of the
text.

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:18:09 +0000

Ori Kowarsky wrote:

> reading of Wolfe's work.
Thirded.

> I am disappointed to discover five books into the story, is not ours at all.
I don't understand why you think Sev's universe can't be ours. The
"creation now vanished" Tzad is talking about is his own universe -
which may or may not be the same as ours and Sev's, it doesn't really
matter. How does its having a Conciliator and a New Sun mean that Sev's
can't have a Christ? Sorry if I'm being thick.

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:36:30 +0000

> can't have a Christ? Sorry if I'm being thick.

For most of the series, I assumed that the "Conciliator" was a set of
poorly-remembered stories of Jesus (I forget how I fit Typhon's statements
into that interpretation), so I was surprised in URTH to find that the
Conciliator was Severian, and was someone far in Jesus's future, if there
even as a Jesus in Severian's world.

When I read the passage quoted above, I interpreted it, as Ori does, to be
Wolfe's coy way of refering to Jesus.  If Jesus had existed in Severian's
universe, I'd expect Tzad to say something like, "there was another sort
of Concilator earlier in your world's history, although we didn't call him
that." 

Or are you suggesting that Tzad isn't referring to Jesus at all, but
rather yet another "conciliator" figure in a different universe who is
neither a version of Severian nor Jesus?

-Rostrum

---

From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:26:55 +0000

> neither a version of Severian nor Jesus?
Almost. The Conciliator is Christ-like, but he's not Christ. So when
Tzad talks about a Conciliator in his universe he -is- talking about
another Severian, but not another Christ. As I see it.

The alternative is to assume that somehow Sev's Earth can have had a
history identical to ours to the point of having a NASA-style man on the
Moon, another St Catherine, another Jungle Book, another Edward
Fitzgerald's translation of Omar Khyam and even another Frankenstein,
all without ever having had a Christ.

---

From: Alex David Groce <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:23:15 +0000

On Apr 28, 12:51am, Ori Kowarsky wrote:
> Subject: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?
> Rostrum wrote:
> 

Ah, now this is interesting.  I think that when you noted a materialistic
explanation, I assume you meant an interpretation that just ignored/avoided the
theological overtones.  Which to me is textually out-of-question--there are too
many clear references to Christianity to have that not come out as a "yes, but
you've ignored the white whale, Sir" explanation of Moby Dick.

	The question is, does the BOTNS necessarily mean Christianity has
completely failed in Urth?  Well, as far as being a clearly present religion,
yes.  However, the church invisible, as I understand it, can continue even if
the visible church has vanished--and as I see it, the patterning of Severian's
life after both Christic and, as importantly, maybe, Apostolic, events
indicates that the Increate (guess who?) is still working through human
history.  I will be honest and say that in my interpretation, the New Sun is
not the end of history, which in this universe may well (I suspect would be)
the end of Christian revelation.  In what sense is the New Sun an
eschatological completion?  It's the opposite--it starts things up, and
prevents the icy/entropy future of Abaia & co.  The New Sun is analogous to
Revelation and Second Coming, but it isn't the same thing.  It's a (here I
agree with you) primarily material rescue--the spiritual end being the wiping
clean of the dying culture of Urth.  Things are just starting up again on Urth,
and where the Green Men will go from there is anybody's guess.  And I'd say
that the Green Men are "man" and probably, in Wolfe's schema, covered by
original sin.  A stage in evolution wouldn't make us gods or angels, and
photosynthesis doesn't really impact metaphysically.

	For me, the best indication that Urth IS our universe, and Christianity
is, while not exactly filling the pews, still around in the important sense, i
in Long Sun.  Silk, it seems to me, has been contacted by the Outsider as part
of a revelation that is to (A) as in the BOTNS, save everybody's skins from a
materially killing end, and (B) to slowly restore Christianity.  The voided
crosses, the images Silk sees, the direct reference to a man crucified--these
seem to me to be sufficient evidence to place it all in our universe (since
Long Sun and New Sun are surely the same universe!)
	Both stories to me seem to be about historical, physical actions saving
mankind or some subset thereof from material disaster, but the underlying
patterns of the salvation are such that it is difficult not to see signs of a
historically active God--specifically, the Christian God.  In fact, the
non-existence of an active Christianity reinforces the theological explanation
of the BOTNS--if the heiros were devout Catholics they might have motives in
making Severian's life analogous to Christ's, in arranging for him to imitate
Peter by raising a woman named Dorcas, etc.  But they don't seem to be.   So,
the patterning of Severian's life is best explained as the hand of the
Increate, working through the physical world and, specifically, that rascal
Severian.

> summer, all things advance by some minute step."

	An interesting speculation--of course, there's my extra-textual reason
for doubting Wolfe would imply that (in fact, doubting Wolfe would imply a
universe without Christ in it), but my reasons for thinking the BOTNS universe
is probably ours are given above (and such little correspondences as teh
astronaut on the moon).
	So, I'd say Sev. wasn't present in the other universe, since Sev. was
the Concilliator, but Christ was, as He is is Sev's universe.

> absence of the Chistian religion in Sev's universe is a mark of that

Where I don't see (whether it's our universe or not) it being absent-Long Sun
seems to clearly (even more so than New Sun, where God's the only one
remembering Christianity in a sense) indicate a human recollection of the
Incarnation.

> mistaken for what it is meant to represent.  This is also called idolotry.

	Yeah, but I doubt many kids end up worshipping a talking lion.  BOTNS
runs little risk, at least, of setting up Severian as an idol--since he's no
role-model, and (in his best trait) tends to put all the credit in the
Increate's hands.  Of course, if you think the ice future is better, and the
New Sun is a Bad Thing, that's another matter, but from a material prospective,
surely a new chance is better than Ragnarok?

> Much safer, I believe, to stick with a materialistic interpretation of the

	Safer, maybe, but leaves a lot of stuff unexplained--such as the
underlying pattern of Severian's whole mission--why, exactly, in a material
interpretation (particularly one without a Christ in the universe's history),
does Severian's life echo Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts?  Are the hieros
playing a wierd literary game?

B
-- 
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:53:24 +0000

At 11:23 AM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
 The New Sun is analogous to
>Revelation and Second Coming, but it isn't the same thing. 

	I've been too busy to keep up with everything on this list -- I have a
huge backlog of posts to read! But I do have a comment here. The coming of
the New Sun is analogous to the Flood, not the end of history. Also,
analogous to the First Coming, not the Second Coming, of the Messiah. The
green man, I submit, is the Christian world, where Eden begins to be
restored. The reason Christianity is not visible in the Commonwealth is
that, in essence, the Commonwealth is pre-Christian.
	Now, to be sure, this future is actually post-Christian, as the scene of
the protestant missionaries shows us. But the story as it actually unfolds
is much more of a recap of the scaffolding of Bible history than of Bible
eschatology. I'd say that the first coming of the Conciliator is not so
much analogous to the first coming of Christ as to the coming of Yahweh
(who, in Christianity, is the preincarnate Jesus) to Israel at Mount Sinai,
or to Abraham at the beginning of the covenant history. Then promises were
made; now they are fulfilled and a new world begins. Note in the New
Testament that as the Gospel arrives, Jerusalem is completely destroyed,
and the language in Matthew 24 and other places speaks of this as a new
flood. As Jesus wept over Jerusalem, so Severian is nonplussed by the
destruction his new world brings with it.
	Remember that Severian is not a Christ, but a "Christian figure." The
Christian is supposed to be LIKE Jesus and do similar things, extending the
Kingdom into history. Thus, what Severian does is like what Jesus DID, not
like what Jesus WILL DO -- if you catch my drift. Accordingly, Wolfe's
future history shows a renewal of the first coming of Christ, not an
arrival of His second coming.
	Unlike the Silk narrative, where there are scores of very clear and
deliberate parallels with the gospel narrative, the Severian narrative is
more vague. But note these parallels: Jesus serves as a servant, and then
is made king. He ascends into heaven, and then 40 years later "returns" to
destroy Jerusalem and usher in the clarified new order. This final coming
is at the end of the world. I submit that this is the scaffolding of the
Severian narrative also.
	Also, while many modern people take the book of Revelation as a prediction
of catastrophes at the end of history, many interpreters (myself included)
believe most of the book deals with the first century. The Beast of
Revelation is the Roman Empire. If Wolfe shares this more traditional view,
and as an R.C. I'll bet he does, then the destruction of Abaia, etc. links
the with destruction of the Beast in Revelation: Rome. So then, not the
second coming, but the final events of the first coming are in view in the
Urth of the New Sun.
	That would be my preferred interpretation, and I think it resolves the
problems you wrestled with.

JBJordan

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:49:59 +0000

Heh.  The reply I was working on to Ori has been made redundant by
Jonathan Laidlow who summed up what I was trying to say with this: 

> So, the discussion over whether Christianity every existed on Urth is 
> to me, a non-starter. Urth is never presented as a literal 
> continuation of Earth history, but a post-historical, mythological 
> point where Earth's stories retell themselves in exciting ways.

So I'll just add a few minor observations.

> in UOTNS.  Tzad, on the seat of judgement, says of his "adventures" with

Lewis, unlike Wolfe, was writing a sort of "literal continuation of Earth
history" with the Narnia and Space Trilogy books.  The books speculate
"What if there were other worlds?  Given what Christians believe, how
might God interact with them?"  Aslan is not a metaphor for Jesus, he IS
the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate as a lion.  He does not die for
Narnia as a sneaky way of retelling the story of Jesus, Aslan dies for
Narnia because Lewis thought that was how God would redeem a world of
talking animals.  (I think Lewis must have realized that this implies a
heretical view of the incarnation because his speculations are more
sophisticated and more orthodox in the Space Trilogy.)

I don't think "metaphor" or "allegory" either one describe very well what
Wolfe is doing.   I think Jonathan's description is much better.

> vanished.  In that too there was a Conciliator and a New Sun, though we did

I think this passage is a wink at the reader, Wolfe acknowledging that
Severian plays a role similar to that of Jesus (and perhaps that Tzad
plays a role similar to the angels who ministered to him).  TBOTNS is a
story alluding to the story of Jesus and to other stories.  To try to
place Jesus within TBOTNS is a category mistake. 

> Now, I'm guessing that in a Catholic interpretation of TBOTNS, this
> would serve to distinguish *our* universe -- in which Jesus existed and
> the future will play out according to certain prophesies -- and Sev's
> universe, which, I am disappointed to discover five books into the
> story, is not ours at all.

I hate to break this to you Ori, but not only is TBOTNS not our universe,
I'm pretty sure Wolfe made the whole thing up.

Seriously, Wolfe's playful appendicies where he talks about translating a
manuscript from the future are a kind of parody of the attempt to fit
Wolfe's story into our world's history.  They serve to highlight the fact
that Urth is a fiction, that this is a story about stories.  Again see
Jonathan's post for a better explanation.

-Rostrum

---

From: Alex David Groce <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:12:03 +0000

On Apr 29,  9:49am, Michael Straight wrote:
> Subject: Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?

	Partial agreement on my part, but very partial if you mean what you
seem to mean; sure, Wolfe is a modernist, and almost all of his major works
are, to some extent, metafictional commentaries on the stories that shape
fiction.  However, Wolfe's metafictions strongly imply that to a great extent
our lives, in "reality," are shaped by stories--this is certainly his stance in
his nonfiction.  So, to say that Wolfe is a modernist does not imply that
reading metaphysical and religious implications into his works is off-base.
After all, T. S. Eliot is rather THE modernist, but to suggest that because
they are (A) reworkings of numerous themes from other sources and (B)
commentaries on the art of poetry doesn't mean that THE WASTE LAND and FOUR
QUARTETS have no religious or metaphysical implications. 
	I would argue that any commentary on the nature of "story" or "art" is,
by necessity, a commentary on the nature of the real world as well.  Wolfe
clearly worked hard to build a consistent and plausible world for Severian and
his attendant texts to move in.  It's hardly futile to argue about the meanings
or the science-fictional details of that well-built world.
-- 
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:10:41 +0000

> or the science-fictional details of that well-built world.

If Wolfe were writing in the same way as Lewis, that is, in a future meant
to be a literal extension of ours, then it would make sense to ask, "If
Tzad is really an Angel of God, why doesn't he tell Severian about Jesus
and the True Catholic Faith?"

I'm arguing that that sort of question would be a category mistake.
Because Wolfe is not trying to imagine how the story of Christ and his
Church might extend into the future, rather he is telling a story that is
a sort of image or icon of the story of Christ.  The picture is not equal
to the thing it pictures.  That doesn't mean the religious or metaphysical
ideas pictured are not important, it just means that the pictures should
not be confused with the thing itself.

-Rostrum

---

From: Ori Kowarsky <orik at sprint.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:45:04 +0000

>you've ignored the white whale, Sir" explanation of Moby Dick.

I think we're talking to cross-purposes here.  The fact that bits and pieces
of the Christian story crop up in TBOTNS may mean nothing more than that
Christianity was once part of the culture, once informed its myths and
legends, and still remains in the form of a half -remembered cultural
substrate.  If by "theological overtones" you mean that physical miracles
are happening, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

>the visible church has vanished--and as I see it, the patterning of
Severian's

I'm sorry, I don't know what "the church invisible" is.

>life after both Christic and, as importantly, maybe, Apostolic, events

Severain is a torturer who goes on a journey to his new place of work, on
the way he picks up a gem which appears to have magic powers, meets a
variety of people, arrives at his job, leaves his job, goes to war, becomes
an emperor.  Which book of the New Testament should I pick up to compare
these events with?

>In what sense is the New Sun an
>prevents the icy/entropy future of Abaia & co.

But the Undines *help* Sev, and if one Undine survives in Ushas, who is to
say that Erebus and Abaia don't as well?  It seems to me that these gigantic
beings who have to live underwater to support their mass benefit more from a
world that is mostly warm water than a giant snowball in space.  Wouldn't
Ragnarock be the end of them too?

>photosynthesis doesn't really impact metaphysically.

Well, actually, we do know where they go;  if they are the heirs of hmanity
then they are a way-station on the way to becoming Hieros;  and if, as I
think you believe, Hieros are angels, apparently you *can* evolve out of
Original Sin.

>Long Sun and New Sun are surely the same universe!)

I don't understand what you mean by point (A).  Did not the coming of the
New Sun kill every human on the planet save a few here and there?  Oh, and
the genetic breeding stock thoughtfully supplied by the Hieros.  As for
point (B), Silk cannot restore Christianity unless he knows what it is;
that involves somehow learning about, and then believeing in, the death,
resurrection, etc.  Until Silk (or Sev) starts witnessing, again, we're
going to have to agree to disagree.

>historically active God--specifically, the Christian God.  In fact, the

What are these underlying patterns of salvation?  In UOTNS the survivors
are:  Sev, an undine, two men and two women of indeterminate character, who
may be very nice people, but are not Christians because they don't believe
in Christ.  The underlying pattern of salvation that I see is that human
beings apparently chosen (or bred) for some purpose have been deposited by
the Hieros on the planet after the original population has been
exterminated.  I certainly hope that this isn't a sign of the Christian God.

>Increate, working through the physical world and, specifically, that rascal

Well, at least we can agree that Sev is a puppet of *somebody's*.

>remembering Christianity in a sense) indicate a human recollection of the

Why?  Because of the voided crosses?

(re:  Narnia)

> Yeah, but I doubt many kids end up worshipping a talking lion.

You are incorrect.  Studies have shown that children who read Narnia grow up
to become adolescents who read Tolkien.  Adolescents who read Tolkien become
teenagers who listen to heavy metal music.  Teenagers who listen to heavy
metal music will inevitably fall under the spell of the leonine-maned Ted
Nugent's "Cat Scratch Fever".

>surely a new chance is better than Ragnarok?

A new chance for whom?  99.99% of the planet is dead!  The choice between
Ushas may be the lesser of two evils, but that shouldn't blind us to the
fact that it *is* evil.

---

From: Ori Kowarsky <orik at sprint.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:18:46 +0000

Actually, given Sev's career with war and women, plus the trajectory of his
life taking him from out of nowhere and dropping him in the throne of a
mighty empire at war, isn't Sev more of a Mohammed-analogue?

Ori