{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1602",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1602,
    "subject": "Realism, SF and F.",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1999-04-30T03:37:40+00:00",
    "last": "1999-05-02T00:20:33+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0026-0068@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "David Duffy",
        "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au"
      },
      "date": "1999-04-30T03:37:40+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Re: Realism, SF and F.",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "All this discussion reminds me of the not-to-be-got-into-here arguments\nabout science fiction v fantasy v magical realism v fabulation v whatever\nwhatever.  Wolfe is a science fiction writer, even when he writes about\nthe fantastic or supernatural, in creating the illusion that the events\ndescribed in the narrative *could* happen.  That is, he tries to make us\nbelieve the underpinnings of the world of the story are the same as our\nown (back to suspension of disbelief).  I guess a certain type of ghost\nstory might be one model (James, how about Hodgson).  Wolfe has written\na few of *those*. \n\nAnother example might be the _Soldier_ series.  His Classical world feels\npretty real to my imagination (not much different to Urth really), and he\nclaims to believe the gods were literally active in it.  All his\n*speculations* are based on particular premises, for which he provides\nevidence in a playful way eg reality of Amazons.\n\nPart of the rules of the game is that both the allegory and the surface\nstory must be completely self-consistent, especially if one is creating\npuzzles.  Wolfe does bother to make up plausible reasons for what happens. \nSo we are allowed to argue about androids -- I think Jonas is made of\nhighly advanced light materials, but is not hollow.  The Ship of UotNS is\nnot the only vehicle that has ever undertaken star travel (we have the\nWhorl as one counterexample), and Jonas's knowledge seems to date him to a\nmuch earlier period (perhaps conventional relativistic processes have\nbrought him so far forward in time).  If he is the Tin Man, who's the \nCowardly Lion? (And has anyone mentioned _Of Mice and Men_ re Baldanders \nand the Dr?)\n\n| David Duffy.                                                    ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362 0217 fax: +0101   /     *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research    \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia                v "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0026-0080@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "William H. Ansley",
        "address": "wansley at warwick.net"
      },
      "date": "1999-05-02T00:20:33+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Realism, SF and F.",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0026-0068@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 David Duffy <davidD at qimr.edu.au> wrote:\nJonas's knowledge seems to date him to a\nmuch earlier period (perhaps conventional relativistic processes have\nbrought him so far forward in time).  If he is the Tin Man, who's the\nCowardly Lion?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Because I have more or less posed as an Oz expert on this list, I'll take a\ncrack at this (especially since it seems likely to have been intended as a\nrhetorical question--I really like answering those <g>).\n\nIf Jonas is the Tin Man, I have no idea who the Cowardly Lion might be. But\nif Sidero is the Tin Man (and I think he is a much better candidate, being\nliterally hollow and heartless as well lacking the kindly emotions that a\nloving, sawdust-stuffed* heart in his chest cavity would no doubt supply)\nthen Zak is the Cowardly Lion.\n\nThe Cowardly Lion is a seemingly craven creature when we first see him (in\nthe movie and the book) who becomes the King of Beasts (by the end of the\nbook although not the movie).\n\nZak is a craven (well, at least he is running away) featureless blob when\nwe first see him who becomes the captain of the ship, among other things.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*This is what the Wizard of Oz gives to the Tin Man in the book, rather\nthan a heart-shaped watch."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}