{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1665", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1665, "subject": "God and the Lizard People", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-06-02T15:27:39+00:00", "last": "1999-06-03T13:34:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "1999-06-02T15:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) God and the Lizard People", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight \nSPOILERS for CASE OF CONSCIENCE here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A. There is no God.\nB. The alien race is an illusion of Satan designed to deceive humanity.\nC. God exists, but his relationship to this alien race is something\n we don't understand.\n\nEveryone in the book seems to think A and B are the only two\npossibilities. No one even considers C. C seems so obvious and B so\nfar-fetched that I was unable to believe in the characters or their\ndebates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To bring your thoughts in line with my earlier post, perhaps\nhypothesis \"C\" is essentially Lewis's Space Trilogy.\n\nI admit that the story is somewhat contrived, but in the context of\nthe experience of reading it, I have to say that it is compelling.\nIt's also got some great dynamics between the priest/biologist and his\n\"hard science\" colleague with his contempt for religion and biology.\nI think that Blish conveys the protaganist's thought process very\nwell (damn, I can't remember any of the characters' names!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which reminds me of another question I have about Wolfe's Catholicism. \nThere's a statement of his which gets quoted frequently, something like\n\"I'm a practicing Catholic, but that probably tells you less about what I\nbelieve than you think.\" I wonder if he meant that he's not entirely\northodox in his beliefs, or that most people's ideas about what orthodox\nCatholics believe are wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take this statement to be Wolfe's defense against those who would\ndismiss him and his views out of hand, simply because he's a\nCatholic. Maybe it's a subtle way of saying that he's pro-choice.\n\nLex Shellac" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-06-03T11:42:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) God and the Lizard People", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WARNING: SPOILERS for Blish's CASE OF CONSCIENCE and Lewis's SPACE TRILOGY" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Dan Parmenter wrote:\nFrom: Michael Straight " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. There is no God.\nB. The alien race is an illusion of Satan designed to deceive humanity.\nC. God exists, but his relationship to this alien race is something\n we don't understand.\n\nEveryone in the book seems to think A and B are the only two\npossibilities. No one even considers C. C seems so obvious and B so\nfar-fetched that I was unable to believe in the characters or their\ndebates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To bring your thoughts in line with my earlier post, perhaps\nhypothesis \"C\" is essentially Lewis's Space Trilogy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that really fits. Lewis's aliens wouldn't have caused\nBlish's characters any problems because they were sinless and aware of and\nin communion with God, which is what Christians might expect of an\nunfallen race. \n\nOnce Ransom gets past the initial communication barrier (definitely by the\ntime of Perelandra) he understands the aliens' relationship to God\npretty well. The other characters only misunderstand because their\nrejection of Christianity prevents them from even considering the alien\nreligion might be congruent with Christianity.\n\nBlish's problem is that the aliens seem totally unaware of God, yet also\nshow no signs of the sin which has caused a breach between us and our\ncreator. But I can think of lots of explanations I would think would be\nmore convincing to the characters than the Satanic Illusion theory. Maybe\nthe aliens have no souls, and glorify God as do stars, stones, and\nanimals. Maybe they have rejected God in some way that we don't recognize\nas sinful and their salvation has not yet been accomplished. Maybe their\nexperience of God is so alien that they cannot communicate it to us.\n\nIs there any precedent in Church history of the Church deciding that some\nparticular bit of evidence that seemed contrary to the faith was an\nillusion? Has anyone ever tried exorcizing the fossil record? \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-06-03T13:34:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) God and the Lizard People", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 2, 3:27pm, Dan Parmenter wrote:\nSubject: (urth) God and the Lizard People\nFrom: Michael Straight " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SPOILERS for CASE OF CONSCIENCE here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. There is no God.\nB. The alien race is an illusion of Satan designed to deceive humanity.\nC. God exists, but his relationship to this alien race is something\n we don't understand.\n\nEveryone in the book seems to think A and B are the only two\npossibilities. No one even considers C. C seems so obvious and B so\nfar-fetched that I was unable to believe in the characters or their\ndebates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To bring your thoughts in line with my earlier post, perhaps\nhypothesis \"C\" is essentially Lewis's Space Trilogy.\n\nI admit that the story is somewhat contrived, but in the context of\nthe experience of reading it, I have to say that it is compelling.\nIt's also got some great dynamics between the priest/biologist and his\n\"hard science\" colleague with his contempt for religion and biology.\nI think that Blish conveys the protaganist's thought process very\nwell (damn, I can't remember any of the characters' names!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which reminds me of another question I have about Wolfe's Catholicism. \nThere's a statement of his which gets quoted frequently, something like\n\"I'm a practicing Catholic, but that probably tells you less about what I\nbelieve than you think.\" I wonder if he meant that he's not entirely\northodox in his beliefs, or that most people's ideas about what orthodox\nCatholics believe are wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take this statement to be Wolfe's defense against those who would\ndismiss him and his views out of hand, simply because he's a\nCatholic. Maybe it's a subtle way of saying that he's pro-choice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI seem to recall somewhere else where Wolfe says almost the same thing\n(this quote is from the ACROSS THE WOUNDED GALAXIES interview, I think) but in\nsuch a way as to imply that he simply means most people don't know much about\nwhat Catholics think--something like \"I don't think priests walk on water or\nanything like that.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] } ] }