{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1673", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1673, "subject": "Navigator", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-06-09T02:48:45+00:00", "last": "1999-06-09T14:10:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "1999-06-09T02:48:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Navigator", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Item 10: the little girl mentions \"the navigator\" in conversation with\nSeverian.\n\nComment: this is the first indication that at least some ancestors of the\ngenerational prisoners might have been the crew of a starship. The girl\nis\ntalking to Severian, not Jonas. We aren't sure of the kin-group of the\ngirl--she might or might not be a member of the same group that was\ntalking\nto Jonas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis:\n\nWhile I understand how you may have arrived at this conclusion, I think it\nraises more questions than it answers (as opposed to my own navigator = JFK\ntheory). And while alternate theories are always welcome, I believe each\nmust somehow address the following:\n\n1) How are the survivors of a crash, whether the ship is Tzadkiel's\nstarship or a tender from the same, able to organize a funeral, complete\nwith black wagons? Especially when it appears they will be subject to\narrest very soon?\n\n2) Why do the \"burying people\" (possibly posthistoric morticians or their\nequivalent--but again how are the survivors of the crash able to engage\nthese?) wear black? While a custom in our times (and hence my belief that\nOringa is talking about the members of the funeral procession, not strictly\nmorticians), Severian tells us wearing black to a funeral slanders the\ndeceased because of its association with his guild. \n\n3) What if anything are we to make of Oringa's statement about \"people in\nblack clothes walking\"?\n(As if walking behind a black funeral wagon is somehow out of the\nordinary--although as I've stated before most accounts of JFK's funeral\nmake mention of how the widow Kennedy refused to ride in a car to St.\nMatthew's Cathedral and hence walked behind the horse-drawn caisson bearing\nher dead husband.)\n\nAlso: you might want to consider one additional datapoint, Item 0.2\nperhaps, where Jonas continues the tale he began at the Piteous Gate\n(CHAPTER VIII, CLAW). It again suggests Jonas has access to information\noutside the ordinary ken--at least for someone born during Severian's time.\n\nHey, I like the launch-silo theory! Especially since Sev seems to see\nradiation biohazard icons.\n\nRobert Borski " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey", "address": "mab at lindau.net" }, "date": "1999-06-09T09:59:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) How are the survivors of a crash, ...able to organize a funeral, complete\nwith black wagons? Especially when it appears they will be subject to\narrest very soon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Concurrence! Exactly what I was wondering when this\ncrew-of-crashed-spaceship theory for the original residents of the\nAntechamber first got floated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Why do the \"burying people\" ...wear black? While a custom in our times ...Severian tells us wearing black to a funeral slanders the\ndeceased because of its association with his guild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm, I think Severian actually meant that the wearing of _fuligin_, as\ndistinct from mere black, constituted the association with torturers. He\nwent to some trouble to explain to the little girl how the color of his\nhabit could be distiguished.\n\nBTW, speaking of variations in burial customs, isn't a significant\ncomponent of the crashed-starship theory that its crew is predominately\nof eastern Asian origin, Korean or Chinese, due to that name \"Kim Lee\nSoong\" which crops up? \nIf I'm not mistaken, the eastern asian cultures use white as a funereal\nand mourning color much as westerners use black. I would expect that a\nKorean crew, given the chance to organize a funeral, would dress\npredominately in white. I think the Chinese do use black in funerals in\ncertain instances, but I'm not clear on the distinction - I think it\ndepends on the relationship to the deceased." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "CRCulver", "address": "crculver at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-06-09T14:10:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 6/9/99 9:08:17 AM EST, MAB at lindau.net writes:\n\n<< BTW, speaking of variations in burial customs, isn't a significant\n component of the crashed-starship theory that its crew is predominately\n of eastern Asian origin, Korean or Chinese, due to that name \"Kim Lee\n Soong\" which crops up?>>\n\nThat's what one would think, but Severian doesn't mention that the prisoners \nare xanthoderms, something which he would probably consider worth mentioning, \nbecause it doesn't look like he has seen any in the Commonwealth. (In fact, \nthe only place I can find the word \"xanthoderm\" in the BotNS proper is Father \nInire's Letter).\n\nChristopher Culver" } ] } ] }