Subject: (urth) Re: Navigator

From: Robert Borski <rborski at coredcs.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 02:48:45 +0000

> Item 10: the little girl mentions "the navigator" in conversation with
> Severian.
> 
> Comment: this is the first indication that at least some ancestors of the
> generational prisoners might have been the crew of a starship.  The girl
is
> talking to Severian, not Jonas.  We aren't sure of the kin-group of the
> girl--she might or might not be a member of the same group that was
talking
> to Jonas.

mantis:

While I understand how you may have arrived at this conclusion, I think it
raises more questions than it answers (as opposed to my own navigator = JFK
theory). And while alternate theories are always welcome, I believe each
must somehow address the following:

1) How are the survivors of a crash, whether the ship is Tzadkiel's
starship or a tender from the same, able to organize a funeral, complete
with black wagons? Especially when it appears they will be subject to
arrest very soon?

2) Why do the "burying people" (possibly posthistoric morticians or their
equivalent--but again how are the survivors of the crash able to engage
these?) wear black? While a custom in our times (and hence my belief that
Oringa is talking about the members of the funeral procession, not strictly
morticians), Severian tells us wearing black to a funeral slanders the
deceased because of its association with his guild. 

3) What if anything are we to make of Oringa's statement about "people in
black clothes walking"?
(As if walking behind a black funeral wagon is somehow out of the
ordinary--although as I've stated before most accounts of JFK's funeral
make mention of how the widow Kennedy refused to ride in a car to St.
Matthew's Cathedral and hence walked behind the horse-drawn caisson bearing
her dead husband.)

Also: you might want to consider one additional datapoint, Item 0.2
perhaps, where Jonas continues the tale he began at the Piteous Gate
(CHAPTER VIII, CLAW). It again suggests Jonas has access to information
outside the ordinary ken--at least for someone born during Severian's time.

Hey, I like the launch-silo theory! Especially since Sev seems to see
radiation biohazard icons.

Robert Borski 

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Mitchell A. Bailey <mab at lindau.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:59:13 +0000

Robert Borski wrote:
...
> 1) How are the survivors of a crash, ...able to organize a funeral, complete

Concurrence! Exactly what I was wondering when this
crew-of-crashed-spaceship theory for the original residents of the
Antechamber first got floated.

> 2) Why do the "burying people" ...wear black? While a custom in our times ...Severian tells us wearing black to a funeral slanders the

Ummm, I think Severian actually meant that the wearing of _fuligin_, as
distinct from mere black, constituted the association with torturers. He
went to some trouble to explain to the little girl how the color of his
habit could be distiguished.

BTW, speaking of variations in burial customs, isn't a significant
component of the crashed-starship theory that its crew is predominately
of eastern Asian origin, Korean or Chinese, due to that name "Kim Lee
Soong" which crops up? 
If I'm not mistaken, the eastern asian cultures use white as a funereal
and mourning color much as westerners use black. I would expect that a
Korean crew, given the chance to organize a funeral, would dress
predominately in white. I think the Chinese do use black in funerals in
certain instances, but I'm not clear on the distinction - I think it
depends on the relationship to the deceased.

---

From: CRCulver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 14:10:52 +0000

In a message dated 6/9/99 9:08:17 AM EST, MAB at lindau.net writes:

<< BTW, speaking of variations in burial customs, isn't a significant
 component of the crashed-starship theory that its crew is predominately
 of eastern Asian origin, Korean or Chinese, due to that name "Kim Lee
 Soong" which crops up?>>

That's what one would think, but Severian doesn't mention that the prisoners 
are xanthoderms, something which he would probably consider worth mentioning, 
because it doesn't look like he has seen any in the Commonwealth. (In fact, 
the only place I can find the word "xanthoderm" in the BotNS proper is Father 
Inire's Letter).

Christopher Culver