{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1675", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1675, "subject": "Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "1999-06-09T11:47:00+00:00", "last": "1999-06-12T11:47:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-06-09T11:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antechamber-as-missile-base: it is possible, and in some ways likely. But\none of the solid clues we have is that one of the \"original\" ceilings has a\npainting of clouds and birds on it--while such a room could exist in a\nbunker or anywhere else (the pleasure dome of Dr. Strangelove), still, it\nisn't an icon of \"bunker\" in the way that, for example, radiation warning\nsigns (I thought Severian saw these in the tunnels of the Citadel, =not= in\nthe House Absolute) and rows of stopped clocks are.\n\nClouds and birds would be a fine decoration for a spaceport.\n\nThematically, the \"garden above and palace below\" arrangement at first\nechoes the Eloi/Morlock scenario of THE TIME MACHINE, furthered by the\nsimilar situation on worldship Yesod.\n\nA different tack: the name itself, \"Antechamber,\" implies that there is\nsome room that is bigger or more important adjacent or nearby. Again, this\nis \"the waiting room.\" Waiting for justice--that is what the prisoners are\ndoing, that is certain. We don't know much about the surrounding area, so\nthere might not be a \"chamber\" nearby. But the odd thing is, we do know\nthat there is direct secret access from the Antechamber to the Presence\nChamber . . . could the antechamber have previously been a waiting room for\na teleportation station?\n\nThe Navigator. New tack: let's take the lore as literal truth, there was\nonly one guy, and his name was Kim Lee Soong. Not a whole crew, not a\nfragment of a crew, just the one guy. (This tack puts even more weight\nupon Kim Lee Soong.) From the physical evidence, the generations in the\nantechamber look to be twenty years apart, so KLS was imprisoned for\ntrespassing or whatever it was at least 160 years ago (seven generations at\n20 years plus one more generation). If there was only one guy from a\nstarship, then it seems somewhat more likely that he himself was the\nnavigator. And he was the first prisoner, or at least, the first lifelong\nprisoner, of the antechamber.\n\nMy longtime sense of the navigator's funeral: the navigator was a prisoner\nin the antechamber, and because he was considered something of a nobleman\n(by virtue of his own personality or his title as navigator, which is a\nhigh position indeed) even by his unwitting captors (because at this early\nstage the antechamber wasn't the dumping ground it had degenerated to by\nSeverian's time), he was given a fitting and proper ceremony. The other\nprisoners saw the ceremony and it was burned into their lore because it was\nthe last glimpse they had of the outside world and/or the navigator was\nvery important to them. (Previously I had assumed that there were more\ncrewmembers as prisoners, and for them the death of their highest ranking\nmember was really like the death of a king or president.)\n\n(Still begs the question: what did the navigator do to become arrested?\nThe answer is that whatever it was, it was trivial, because we are told\nmajor cases are/were dispatched quickly. And yet for some reason it was\nnot a simple situation whereby he could be released--in a sense, every time\nhe came up for parole, there was some reason to keep him in custody.)\n\nPutting these two things together for my first time: Kim Lee Soong was the\nnavigator, the only crewmember from some unnamed ship, and he became the\n\"culture hero\" (and perhaps blood ancestor as well) for generations of\nprisoners because he brought big knowledge of the starry heavens to people\nwho were trapped in a big cave. (Note the Platonic imagery.) Almost an\nOannes to them.\n\nAnother tack on Jonas' agitation: maybe there is a hint of \"resurrection\nshock\" when he says that he feels that he is finally waking up. If Jonas\npersonally knew a man named Kim Lee Soong, a specific man with a very\ncommon name who he has learned was trapped in this prison and lived and\ndied, then Jonas would have two avenues for shock: the loss of another\npersonal link to his lost homeland; the concrete passage of biological time\ncompared to his mindnumbed and timeless robotic wandering.\n\nThe Navigator as JFK. I wouldn't deny the cultural impact of JFK's funeral\non the 20th century USA and how this is reflected in what the girl says.\nIt also bundles nicely with the Apollo astronaut on Lune--but it is an\nassociation a step removed. (The Man on Moon picture is direct.) JFK is\nlinked to Apollo as its visionary father, but one who didn't live to see it\nachieve its goal . . . like Caesar, JFK died, and Nixon is the one who was\nin the office. So maybe a stronger case could be made that \"the navigator\"\nis a wholly legendary figure, a composite of two historical figures--JFK\n(visionary of Apollo Project) and, say, Henry the Navigator (visionary who\nalso died before the goal was achieved).\n\nAs always, it all depends upon the greater application.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey", "address": "mab at lindau.net" }, "date": "1999-06-09T16:46:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n\nAntechamber-as-missile-base: it is possible, and in some ways likely. But\none of the solid clues we have is that one of the \"original\" ceilings has a\npainting of clouds and birds on it--while such a room could exist in a\nbunker or anywhere else (the pleasure dome of Dr. Strangelove), still, it\nisn't an icon of \"bunker\" in the way that, for example, radiation warning\nsigns ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take has been that the House Absolute was reclaimed as a\nresidence/command center rather early in the Monarch's Empire, several\nmillenia earlier; the painted ceiling could date from a time when that\npart of the antechamber had been an apartment for the monarch or his\nfamily or an important minister or staffer; the text clearly states that\nseveral rooms were consolidated as the antechamber grew. Wouldn't you\nthink the monarch's retinue would include a good few Doctor\nStrangeloves?\n\n\n...(I thought Severian saw these in the tunnels of the Citadel, =not= in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the House Absolute) and rows of stopped clocks are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I saw that too. This was after he returned as Autarch. One of the perks\nof office is that you get a decent flashlight to take with you down into\nthe Citadel tunnels. Apprentice Sev was in utter darkness and couldn't\nsee the signs or anything else. \n\nIt was at the door to Inire's specula chamber in the Second House that\nthe \"crimson teratoid sign\" Sev surmised to be of extraterrestrial\norigin appeared. That seems to be what we're interpreting as radioactive\nor biohazard warning symbols." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clouds and birds would be a fine decoration for a spaceport." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds sorta baroque for me, but fashions change. That's really what I\nthought of reading that passage: one of those roccoco lavishly\nornamented European drawing rooms of say the eighteenth century, or the\nfrescoes of ancient Rome. You're assigned a suite in an ancient concrete\nbunker, you've got money and slaves, what do you do to make it more\ncheerful?\n\nWhy is this 'spaceport' underground? Protection against the backblast of\nmore primitive chemical thrusters? War or military application? (which\nleads us back to...)\nThe spaceport which became the Citadel wasn't essentially underground;\nthe tunnels beneath it had gone out of use and memory by Sev's time,\nprobably long before Typhon's reign." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...we do know\nthat there is direct secret access from the Antechamber to the Presence\nChamber . . . could the antechamber have previously been a waiting room for\na teleportation station?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, I get the impression that this type teleportation is the exclusive\nprovince of Father Inire and a few of his peers, and was installed by\nand for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Navigator. ... so KLS was imprisoned for\ntrespassing or whatever it was at least 160 years ago (seven generations at\n20 years plus one more generation). If there was only one guy from a\nstarship, then it seems somewhat more likely that he himself was the\nnavigator. And he was the first prisoner, ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't be; the antechamber/holding cell used as such, by your own\nchronology in Lexicon Urthus, has to be over a millenium old since it\nseems to predate the autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...or at least, the first lifelong\nprisoner, of the antechamber.\n\n...\n(Still begs the question: what did the navigator do to become arrested?\nThe answer is that whatever it was, it was trivial, because we are told\nmajor cases are/were dispatched quickly. And yet for some reason it was\nnot a simple situation whereby he could be released--in a sense, every time\nhe came up for parole, there was some reason to keep him in custody.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I rather have the idea that the crowded magistrates-court docket and\nneglect go back much farther than 160 years.\n\nThe pettiest cases are ignored and forgotten, and so the accused wind up\nin effect serving a life sentence by default. \nSort of makes me think of the \"Kafkaesque\" criminal justice system of\nSt. Croix in \"V.R.T.\", where they eventually decide, pretty much by\ndefault, to hold Victor Trenchard alias John Marsch Phd. indefinitely.\nRelease, over such a petty technicality as innocence of the crime for\nwhich \"Marsch\" presumably was originally being investigated (the murder\nof Maitre, for which Number Five already had been convicted and\nsentenced), would constitute an unthinkable admission of error and\nfallibility on the part of the Croix secret police." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-06-12T00:34:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "mantis wrote:\nAnother tack on Jonas' agitation: maybe there is a hint of \"resurrection\nshock\" when he says that he feels that he is finally waking up. If Jonas\npersonally knew a man named Kim Lee Soong, a specific man with a very\ncommon name who he has learned was trapped in this prison and lived and\ndied, then Jonas would have two avenues for shock: the loss of another\npersonal link to his lost homeland; the concrete passage of biological time\ncompared to his mindnumbed and timeless robotic wandering.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think the all-too-human tendency to anthropomorphize is evident both\nin Wolfe's writing about Jonas and our speculations about him. Ascribing\nhuman emotions such as \"shock\", \"agitation\", loyalty, love, friendship,\nloss, etc. to an android are misplaced. Jonas is not a man: he is a machine.\nAny simulacra of human emotive states that Jonas manifests are just that. He\ndoes not have a human brain, therefore is not subject to or capable of the\nelectro-chemical processes therein which are responsible for producing such\nhuman sentiments. Wolfe invites such humanization of Jonas with Sev's\nportrayal of \"him\": even the question of gender is an arbitrary one, one\ndetermined by programming, not biology. If the spacecraft had killed a woman\ninstead of a man, would the android have become Joann rather than Jonas? Or\nwould \"he\" have just gone around in \"drag\" costume? \n\n Earlier I speculated about Jonas's \"age\", or, more to the point, the age\nof the human face he is wearing. No need to speculate: in chapter X of\n_Claw_ Sev supposes him to be \"about ten years my elder\". He later ups that\nestimate somewhat, but only on account of the knowledge Jonas possesses,\nwhich Sev believes could only accrue to a man of middle age. Sev can be no\nolder than his early twenties, which means Jonas can appear to look not much\nmore than 33 years old. There is no evidence in the text to lead us to\nbelieve that normal human beings have the means to extend life or youth, and\neven if they did, there is no evidence that Jonas had access to such wonders\nof medical technology. In fact, at least for the masses, most technology on\nUrth is more primitive than our own.\n\n Even if the man killed when Jonas's ship crashed was a young man -- say\n18 -- that would seem to indicate that the crash could not have happened\nmuch more than 15 years before Sev met him. However old Jonas may be -- and\nhe does seem to come from an era much nearer ours than Sev's -- he cannot\nhave been wandering Urth for nearly so long as is commonly assumed.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1999-06-12T11:29:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n I think the all-too-human tendency to anthropomorphize is evident both\nin Wolfe's writing about Jonas and our speculations about him. Ascribing\nhuman emotions such as \"shock\", \"agitation\", loyalty, love, friendship,\nloss, etc. to an android are misplaced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it can be that simple. As someone was saying just earlier in\nthe week, Wolfe writes about non-humans as if they have `souls' in some\nsense. They're not completely human --- but they're not completely inhuman\neither, just like Jonas himself. There is no such stark distinction in\nWolfe's writing. (And androids *are* anthropomorphic; another of those\ncases of the literal and metaphoric being mixed which makes Wolfe so rich.)\n\ncorncrake" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1999-06-12T11:47:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Antechamber, Jonas, navigator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 12, 12:34am, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSubject: (urth) Re: Antechamber, Jonas, navigator\nmantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another tack on Jonas' agitation: maybe there is a hint of \"resurrection\nshock\" when he says that he feels that he is finally waking up. If Jonas\npersonally knew a man named Kim Lee Soong, a specific man with a very\ncommon name who he has learned was trapped in this prison and lived and\ndied, then Jonas would have two avenues for shock: the loss of another\npersonal link to his lost homeland; the concrete passage of biological time\ncompared to his mindnumbed and timeless robotic wandering.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think the all-too-human tendency to anthropomorphize is evident both\nin Wolfe's writing about Jonas and our speculations about him. Ascribing\nhuman emotions such as \"shock\", \"agitation\", loyalty, love, friendship,\nloss, etc. to an android are misplaced. Jonas is not a man: he is a machine.\nAny simulacra of human emotive states that Jonas manifests are just that. He\ndoes not have a human brain, therefore is not subject to or capable of the\nelectro-chemical processes therein which are responsible for producing such\nhuman sentiments. Wolfe invites such humanization of Jonas with Sev's\nportrayal of \"him\": even the question of gender is an arbitrary one, one\ndetermined by programming, not biology. If the spacecraft had killed a woman\ninstead of a man, would the android have become Joann rather than Jonas? Or\nwould \"he\" have just gone around in \"drag\" costume? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is missing the point--I'd be surprised if Wolfe believes that\nhuman emotions are purely a matter of particular electro-chemical processes of\nthe brain--just as many proponents of strong AI suppose the brain to be one of\nthe many \"computers\" capable of \"running intelligence,\" human emotions might\nhave analogues produced by other physical systems. This is only improper\nanthropomorphizing if you take a rather provincial view of the applicability of\nhuman emotions. From Wolfe's complex theology, I'd say that he'd view (and I'd\ntend to agree here) most human emotions as the images of Divine ones, analogous\nif in no way the same. And Wolfe's universe seems to not limit \"the image of\nGod\" to man, or at least to our garden-variety of man. In one sense, Jonas IS\na man.B" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Earlier I speculated about Jonas's \"age\", or, more to the point, the age\nof the human face he is wearing. No need to speculate: in chapter X of\n_Claw_ Sev supposes him to be \"about ten years my elder\". He later ups that\nestimate somewhat, but only on account of the knowledge Jonas possesses,\nwhich Sev believes could only accrue to a man of middle age. Sev can be no\nolder than his early twenties, which means Jonas can appear to look not much\nmore than 33 years old. There is no evidence in the text to lead us to\nbelieve that normal human beings have the means to extend life or youth, and\neven if they did, there is no evidence that Jonas had access to such wonders\nof medical technology. In fact, at least for the masses, most technology on\nUrth is more primitive than our own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But since we don't know anything about the process by which the dead man was\nincorporated into Jonas, it very well could extend the tissue life a great\ndeal. Suggestive, maybe, but certainly not conclusive about Jonas' age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Even if the man killed when Jonas's ship crashed was a young man -- say\n18 -- that would seem to indicate that the crash could not have happened\nmuch more than 15 years before Sev met him. However old Jonas may be -- and\nhe does seem to come from an era much nearer ours than Sev's -- he cannot\nhave been wandering Urth for nearly so long as is commonly assumed.\n\nRoy" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce" } ] } ] }