{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1700", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1700, "subject": "Eyeflash - the Land of Earth_Oz", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-06-24T20:59:50+00:00", "last": "1999-06-25T08:37:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Clifford Drane", "address": "dranec at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-06-24T20:59:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Eyeflash - the Land of Earth_Oz", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can call me William, Clifford." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, William it is. :)\n\nI feel at somewhat of a disadvantage not having as much scholarly knowledge \nabout the Oz books. I only have the movie to go from, so bear that in mind \nwhen you read my responses.\n\nI need to refer to one of my earlier suppositions about the 'why' - 1) Oz is \nan alternate reality of which Little Tib is a doorway. I prefer this \nexplanation. I can best illustrate by answering your questions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why doesn't Little Tib recognize any of the Oz characters?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorothy experienced the world of Oz in a dream state, but not necessarily \n'dreamed' it. I think it is open to interpretation that she experienced an \nactual world called Oz through her dream. So, Little Tib being the \nextraordinary person he is, can not only visit Oz, but pull people out of it \nto help him out of tight spots. This is why he doesn't recognize the Oz \ncharacters - this is the world of the movie (or books), not our world! After \nall, Dorothy doesn't recognize them either!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When is it taking place? Is it our near future, or an alternate history \nline?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like I proposed above, I think this is the world of the movie in our near \nfuture (which would be about 100 years after Dorothy's world)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is it taking place? It seems to be the United States, but why is the \ncapital in Niagara? Has the US broken up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, probably in some vision of the world that Wolfe thought would be \ncondusive to a ruthless form of citizen control. I think this is secondary \ndetail without much depth behind it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Little Tib's parents really both become government agents?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't imagine his mother becoming an agent, and want to kill her child. I \nthink it is likely that the father killed the mother. Pure supposition, \nthough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was Little Tib's father complicit in his blinding? Little Tib's first dream \nsuggests this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have the book with me to re-read, but it never struck me that the \nparents were that imaginative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think (1 (Tib as doorway idea)) is likely. Little Tib's contacts \nwith Oz are either through dreams which are (to me at least) obviously \ndreams (albeit with many Oz elements) and not visits to an alternate \nreality (unless it is an alternate reality that is dream-like in a way that \nOz, in Baum's hands at least, never was) or by interacting with a single Oz \ncharacter in the \"real\" world. These Oz beings never talk about being \ntransported from Oz in any manner, although they may mention Oz related \npeople, places and things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If dreams are the road to Oz, then Little Tib could be a 'lucid dreamer'. If \nhis mind can bridge the gap without losing track of the 'real' world, then \nit stands to reason that he'd have a little more control than Dorothy. \nHere's some wild supposition - perhaps Oz is the source of mystical power, \nand that power spills over into our world in the form of psychic powers. Tib \nis the psychic embodiment of Oz's ruler, but doesn't know it yet. So, Tib \ncan cross back and forth and bring people with him, including Oz characters \nwho aren't surprised (he's the ruler, after all).\n\nAnd the beings in the book never talk about being transported because they \nhaven't been YET. Tib is in their future, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(2 (Tib conjuring 'aquastors' of Oz characters)) fits in with the way I \nread the story much better. As to why the \"spirits\" Little Tib's \"conjures\" \nup take on the form of Oz characters, I still can't come up with a better \nanswer than my suggestion in my Ozflash postings that the Oz images are \ncoming from the mind of Little Tib's father, Big Tib. Of course this leads \nto another why. Perhaps part of Big Tib's (subconscious) mind is trying to \noffer Little Tib a safe hiding place or help and the best hiding place and \nsource of help it can come up with is (childhood memories of) Oz." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find your theory about Tib drawing from his father's subconscious mind to \nbe very tenuous. Tib didn't seem that close to his father, and his father \nwasn't around for most of the story. Why not draw from any of the other \ncharacters? Why not his mother? His father doesn't seem preoccupied with Oz, \nso why would the characters be so important as to be conjured? (think about \na hard drive - if a hard drive contains one MS Word file about Oz, what is \nthe likelyhood that that one file would pop to the surface during a random \nsearch?). Tib's father doesn't seem too interested in saving Tib (didn't the \nTin Man block a lethal blow?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is interesting to compare Little Tib's angels with Silk's Enlightenment \nin TBotLS. The angels seems to help Little Tib, but it may well be that \nLittle Tib is actually causing the helpful events to occur, with the angels \nas a guiding rather that effective force. Little Tib may be the help that \nwas sent to him, as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read the Long Sun yet, but your statement 'causing the helpful \nevents to happen' is exactly what I'm proposing, just drawing from a real \nsource not a literary one.\n\nSo, what do you think? Fun topic!\n\ncd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1999-06-25T08:37:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Eyeflash - the Land of Earth_Oz", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clifford Drane wrote:\nI feel at somewhat of a disadvantage not having as much scholarly knowledge \nabout the Oz books. I only have the movie to go from, so bear that in mind \nwhen you read my responses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You (and other people) might like to know that a lot of the books are\navailable over the net from Project Gutenberg. Go to\n\n http://promo.net/pg/query.html\n\nand enter Baum in the author box. This turned me up the following (plus\nother non-Oz books). They're in reverse alphabetic order --- Wonderful\nWizard came last, so I put it first without thinking until after.\n\nWonderful Wizard of Oz, The\nTin Woodman of Oz, The\nTik-Tok of OzBaum\nScarecrow of Oz, The\nRoad to Oz\nRinkitink In OzBaum\nPatchwork Girl of Oz, The\nOzma of Oz\nMarvelous Land of Oz, The\nMagic of Oz, The\nLost Princess of Oz, The\nGlinda of Oz\nEmerald City of Oz, The\nDorothy and the Wizard in Oz\n\ncorncrake" } ] } ] }