{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1722", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1722, "subject": "Belated Flowers", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-07-23T09:21:31+00:00", "last": "1999-07-25T10:00:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at ibm.net" }, "date": "1999-07-23T09:21:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Belated Flowers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is another post I sent 3 days ago in response to Roy. I just realized\nthis morning that it didn't go through., so here it is again.\n_____________\n\nI've dug around and found an old book, a reprint of a Victorian \"Language of\nFlowers,\" by \"Mrs. L. Burke\" to see if I can add anything to Roy's\nfascinating analysis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n1) When Dorcas, Agia, and Sev are being rowed across the Lake of\nBirds (I, XXIV) by Hildegrin, Dorcas plucks a blue water hyacinth from the\nsurface of the lake--a place where flowers do not exist--and places it in\nher hair. The water hyacinth is most often associated with \"constancy\".\nThe chapter title \"The Flower of Dissolution\" refers, of course, to the\navern he is there to pluck. The water hyacinth is mentioned in the first\nline of the chapter; the avern in the last. The avern represents the\ndissolution of death, obviously, and is presented in contrast to the water\nhyacinth. While Sev is speculating about where the hyacinth came from his\nthoughts turn religious, noting the contrast of life and death, light and\ndark, order and chaos, etc., concluding, to state it simply, that the\nnegative halves of these pairs of opposites is where God isn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs. Burke was obviously English, and the water hyacinth is a native\nAmerican plant, so she doesn't mention it. The water lily, however, stands\nfor \"purity of heart,\" which also\npertains to Dorcas.The hyacinth itself, a quite different plant, is \"sport,\ngame, play.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am aware of the use of the hyacinth in T. S. Eliot's \"The Waste\nLand\" as a symbol of resurrection, which would fit perfectly in this\ncontext, and Wolfe well may have had this poem in mind when he wrote this\nscene, but in the sources on florigraphy that I have seen, resurrection is\nnot the meaning assigned to the hyacinth. While the language of flowers\nand the symbolic use of flowers certainly overlap, they are not entirely\ncongruent, and I make no pretense of being an authority on the subject.\n\n2) On the day after the contest at the Sanguinary Field, after\nSev's visit with Agia and Agilus in the latter's cell, Sev arranges for\ntemporary quarters for the night for himself and Dorcas. The couple then\ngoes for a walk. (I, XXX) \"Dorcas had found a daisy for her hair; but as\nwe walked about outside the walls ... it folded its petals in sleep, and\nshe plucked instead one of those white, trumpet-shaped blossoms that are\ncalled moonflowers.\". They soon return to their room to make love for the\nfirst time. It is unclear from the text where Dorcas obtained the daisy\n(yes, it matters), and its color is not specified. The meaning of the\ngeneric daisy is \"innocence\"; the same for the white daisy. Since they\nwere at a military compound, it seems safe to disregard the garden daisy.\nThe wild, or single field daisy, however, means \"I will think of it\".\nEither of these two meanings could apply to Dorcas. She has a child-like\ninnocence and is struggling to recall her past. The change of flowers is\nsignificant and has a clearer meaning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs. Burke agrees that the daisy is \"innocence,\" but by that she means the\nfield daisy. The garden daisy is \"I partake your sentiments.\" The moonflower\nis a tropical plant, and unknown to Mrs. B, but the morning glory, to which\nit is a sort of cousin, means \"affectation\" in her book. Something to think\nabout." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The moonflower is the common name for a member of the twining or\ncreeping plants, such as the morning glory, which are part of the family\ncalled ipomoea. The meaning given to ipomoea is \"attachment; I attach\nmyself to you\". In context, the meaning is clear enough, both literally\nand figuratively.\n\n3) After escaping from the antechamber Sev rejoined the thespian\ngroup. An interesting side note is that, when he found the group, Dr.\nTalos was striking the heads from flowers with his cane, just as he did\nthe night, near the end of SHADOW, when Sev and Dorcas came upon his\nencampment, the same night that the eidolons Malrubius and Triskele\nappeared to him. Make of that what you will. At any rate, after a nap, Sev\nand Dorcas wandered away onto the grounds of the House Absolute to be\nalone and talk. (II, XXII) They passed through a grove of plum trees in\nbloom, and Dorcas put a twig of the white blossoms into her hair. Sev\ndraws the distinction between the plum trees he and Jonas passed through\non the way to the antechamber, which he judged to have been planted for\nornamentation, and those he and Dorcas passed through, which he thought\nhad been planted for the fruit. The distinction would be absolutely\npointless but for the difference in the meaning attached to them. The wild\nplum tree means \"independence\", but the generic plum tree (presumably\ndomesticated, cultivated for the fruit) means \"keep your promise\" or\n\"genius\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs. B differentiates three kinds of plum blossoms. The Indian plum is\n\"privation;\" the tree plum is \"fidelity\" (that's the one I would guess\nhere); the wild plum is \"independence.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Near the bench where they are sitting in a long-forgotten garden\nare a few beds of simple flowers and herbs--\"rosemary, angelica, mint,\nbasil, and rue\", meaning, respectively, \"remembrance\", \"inspiration\",\n\"virtue\", \"hatred (or \"give me your good wishes\")\", and \"disdain\". [N1]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs. B. agrees with the above. But I must admit I am suprised. What does one\nmake of Keats's \"Isabella, or the Pot of Basil?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) In Thrax, on the morning of the last day of her life with Sev,\nDorcas cut her hair short and left their rooms after putting a white peony\nin her hair. (III, II) There are several meanings for the white peony:\n\"anger\", \"bashfulness\", \"shame\". Anger and shame are both indicated here.\nThe book opens with Dorcas-- who fears and avoids water--recounting\nstanding under a waterfall in the women's bath, trying to wash the stench\nof the prison tunnels out of her hair. She is angry with the women she\nheard talking about her, the paramour of a torturer, and the things they\nsay about Sev. She is also angry with Sev, because she realizes what the\nwomen are saying is true. She feels shame for herself for putting up with\nit, for going to bed in a room atop those very tunnels. While listening to\nDorcas air her feelings (III, I), Sev likens the yellow lights of the city\nbelow to a jonquil. The jonquil means \"I desire a return of affection\".\nTough luck." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs. B. doesn't include \"anger\" with the peony, only shame and bashfulness\n(odd, with such a showy flower). She agrees about the jonquil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) When Sev last sees Dorcas, it is in the ruins of lower Nessus.\nTraveling up the Gyoll aboard the _Samru_, Sev spies \"...a little boat,\nnewly built, tied to an ancient pier.\" What follows is either an\nabsolutely astonishing act of intuition or the one instance in the entire\nUrth Cycle when slow-witted Sev is smarter than the reader. He asks to be\nput ashore alongside the boat, and there reveals what else he saw from the\ndeck of the ship; \"...a wilted scarlet poppy left lying on the single\nseat.\" (IV, XXXII). By means inexplicable, he finds his way to the\nlong-deserted shop where Dorcas had lived with her husband and child.\n\"Perhaps it was no more than the perfume of the blossom she wore, because\nwhen I saw her she had an arum, freckled white and sweet as Dorcas herself\nhad always been, thrust into her hair. No doubt she had brought it there\nfor that purpose, and had taken out the wilted poppy and cast it down when\nshe had tied up her boat.\" What purpose? As the text reads, it means the\npurpose of guiding him to her in the shop via the scent of the arum. Yet\nthere is no way for her to know or even suspect that Sev is anywhere near\nNessus. He enters the rear of the shop through \"a narrow door hidden under\nivy\". The ivy vine means \"matrimony, marriage\". Inside, with her back to\nhim, she is kneeling before a bier on which is the dead body of the old\nboatman, her former husband. Beside her is a basket \"not small yet not\nlarge either\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The scarlet poppy is \"fantastic extravagance;\" I would tend to think that it\nrefers to her life with Sev rather than to the boat; wilted, it has been\ncast off in favor of the symbols of love and fidelity. The arum is \"ardour\"\n(like Mrs. B., I use Brit spelling). For ivy, she adds \"fidelity\" to\n\"marriage.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The generic meaning of a poppy, or of a red poppy, is\n\"consolation\", but that of a scarlet poppy is \"fantastic extravagance\". I\ndon't know if Sev can tell the difference between red and scarlet. If\ntaken literally, fantastic extravagance may refer to the expense of the\n\"newly built\" boat, a boat she will have little more use for. The arum has\ntwo meanings, \"ardor\" and \"ferocity and deceit\".[N2] I think the first of\nthose meanings can be dismissed, given her circumstances. The spotted arum\nmeans both \"ardor\" and \"great warmth\". As for \"ferocity and deceit\", that\ndepends on exactly what has been going on. There are lingering questions\nabout exactly how she came to be in the Lake of Birds, but more and more\nof her memories had been coming back even before she left Sev. She may\nhave remembered how she got there, which may relate to the old boatman's\ntimely demise. Recall that in the same conversation that Sev and Dorcas\nhad in the gardens of the House Absolute that I mentioned above, Dorcas\nobjected to Dr. Talos having labeled Sev as Death, that he wasn't really\nlike that. Sev called it a metaphor, and Dorcas said it was a bad\nmetaphor. In the last paragraph of that chapter Sev wrote: \"...it occurred\nto me to wonder whether Dr. Talos's calling Dorcas \"Innocence\" had not\nbeen a metaphor of the same kind.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what to say about the below either, except that these are all\ncommon wild plants. Loosestrife, a significant weed in America, was not\nknown to Mrs. B; she might have put it with foxglove (another spiky plant),\nwhich means \"insincerity.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[N1] \"...twined lupine, purple loosestrife, and white meadow rue.\" are the\nwildflowers that deck the bowers of Sev and his fellow gods. Lupine (very\nWolfean) means \"voraciousness; inspiration; dejection\". Loosestrife\n(lysimachia vulgaris) means \"pretension\". Lysimachia is Greek for \"ending\nstrife\". Purple loosestrife (lythrum salicaria) derives its color from\nlythrum, a word from the Greek \"lythron\", meaning \"blood\". I don't know if\nthe qualifiers \"white\" and \"meadow\" charge the meaning of white meadow rue\n(thalictrum aquilegiifolium 'album') with any meaning beyond the typical\nmeaning for rue of \"disdain\".\n\n[N2] Dragonwort is another name for the common arum, as is wake-robin and\nsnakeweed. Dragonwort means \"horror\" (as does mandrake) in the language of\nflowers. It is mentioned in the OED that those who carry the leaves and\nroots of the dragonwort are protected against vipers and serpents. In\nchapter XXVII of CLAW Dorcas likened the stream that she, Sev, and Jolenta\ncamped beside to a big snake. Given her fear of water, she may have\ncarried the arum in the boat with her down the Gyoll to ameliorate her\nfear of the river." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-07-23T23:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Belated Flowers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "alga:\n\n Thanks for taking an interest in the subject. And, as I said, there's a\nlot more of it in the NEW SUN books, more than is commonly realized, else\nsomeone would have written about it before. The flower references are\neverywhere. Your Mrs. Burke seems to be largely in agreement with the\nsources I used. The meanings that I listed for any particular flower were,\nwhen possible, those for which I found agreement in more than one source,\nbut the meanings sometimes varied with both time and place. Most of the\ninterest in the language of flowers seems to have been in Western Europe and\nnever caught on well in the Americas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mrs. Burke was obviously English, and the water hyacinth is a native\nAmerican plant, so she doesn't mention it. The water lily, however, stands\nfor \"purity of heart,\" which also\npertains to Dorcas.The hyacinth itself, a quite different plant, is \"sport,\ngame, play.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The hyacinth matches up well with Silk's Hyacinth. Regarding the water\nlily: that is the shape of the boat (\"shaped like the wide flower of the\nnenuphar\") in which Severian and Jolenta had their little tryst in the\ngardens of the House Absolute. The color is not specified. Depending on the\nvariety and color of lily the boat was meant to look like, the meanings\nrange from: white= modesty and purity; yellow= falsehood; water lily=\neloquence; day lily= coquetry; to yellow day lily= gaiety. On their way to\nthe little river they \"passed through a hawthorn hedge whose spotted white\nblossoms seemed from a distance to present an insurmountable barrier...\" All\nthe sources I've seen list the hawthorn meaning as \"hope\". What do you make\nof that?\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mrs. B. agrees with the above. But I must admit I am suprised. What does\none\nmake of Keats's \"Isabella, or the Pot of Basil?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Oddly enough, after your Shakespearean garden post, I looked in\nBartlett's, which lead me to that poem, but what a severed head watered with\ntears in a pot of basil may mean eludes me.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Stephenson", "address": "pws at ibmth.df.unipi.it" }, "date": "1999-07-24T11:45:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Belated Flowers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nOn their way to\nthe little river they \"passed through a hawthorn hedge whose spotted white\nblossoms seemed from a distance to present an insurmountable barrier...\" All\nthe sources I've seen list the hawthorn meaning as \"hope\". What do you make\nof that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha, that sounds to me distinctly Proustian. It may agree with the time\nthemes present in that particular episode (starting at the begining of the\nchapter with the comparison with the Atrium of Time). Proust has a long\ndescription of a hawthorn hedge in one of the earlier books --- I think it\nmay even be along the way to Swann's place as mentioned in the title of\nbook one. My Proust's a long way away, however, and I can't rememeber the\ndetailed theme of his description. May someone can do us a favour?\n(Anyone for a `soomarising Prowst' competition? Come to think of it, I've\ngot the original French with me somewhere, which I suspended reading for\nreasons which might be obvious if you look at my email address. But if I\ncan find my French dictionary as well, I'll report back...)\n\ncorncrake" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at ibm.net" }, "date": "1999-07-25T10:00:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Belated Flowers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mrs. Burke was obviously English, and the water hyacinth is a native\nAmerican plant, so she doesn't mention it. The water lily, however,\nstands\nfor \"purity of heart,\" which also\npertains to Dorcas.The hyacinth itself, a quite different plant, is\n\"sport,\ngame, play.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The hyacinth matches up well with Silk's Hyacinth. Regarding the water\nlily: that is the shape of the boat (\"shaped like the wide flower of the\nnenuphar\") in which Severian and Jolenta had their little tryst in the\ngardens of the House Absolute. The color is not specified. Depending on\nthe\nvariety and color of lily the boat was meant to look like, the meanings\nrange from: white= modesty and purity; yellow= falsehood; water lily=\neloquence; day lily= coquetry; to yellow day lily= gaiety. On their way to\nthe little river they \"passed through a hawthorn hedge whose spotted white\nblossoms seemed from a distance to present an insurmountable barrier...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the sources I've seen list the hawthorn meaning as \"hope\". What do you\nmake\nof that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think Wolfe definitely has a book on flower language--Hy's name is\nall too apt. Mrs. B. agrees that hawthorn is \"hope,\" but I can't say what\nthe hedge means here. Here's a little personal anecdote on the nenuphar. I\nhave a delightful newish friend, born Turkish, whose name is Nilufer. I\nasked her what it meant, and she told me \"waterlily.\" Of course I thought\nimmediately of Wolfe's nenuphars and told her about them; she asked for some\nbackup (she's a lawyer!) and I sent her the following from the OED (as\nmantis knows, I am all too proud of my OED CD, which allows me to paste\nemail in a trice). Nilufer and nenuphar are the same word.\n\nnenuphar Also 6­8 -far, 6 -farre, 7 -fer (and erron. nune-, nemi-, nem-).\n[a. med.L. nenuphar, -far (It. and Sp. nenufar, F. nénufar), ad. Arab.-Pers.\nn_nufar, n_lufar, Pers. also n_lufal, -pal, ad. Skr. n_lôtpala blue lotus,\nf. n_l blue + utpala lotus, water-lily.]\n1. A water-lily, esp. the common white or yellow species. In early use freq.\nin oil, syrup, water of nenuphar.\n1533 Elyot Cast. Helth (1534) 76 Syrope of violettes, nemipher, or the wine\nof sweet pomegranates.\n1563 T. Gale Antidotarie i. viii. 5 Among compoundes these are in vse,\nbutter, oile of roses, Violettes, Nenuphar, Popye.\n1621 Burton Anat. Mel. ii. v. i. vi. (1651) 397 To refrigerate the face, by\nwashing it often with Rose, Violet, Nenuphar, Lettuce, Lovage waters and the\nlike.\n1612 Peacham Gentl. Exerc. iii. 162 Of Flowers you haue Roses, Gilliflowers,\nViolets, Nenuphar, Lilly.\n1725 Bradley Fam. Dict. s.v. Syrup, Syrup of Nenuphar, or Water-Lilly.\n1759 tr. Adanson's Voy. Senegal in Pinkerton Voy. (1814) XVI. 631 The leaves\nof the nenufar, or water-lilly.\n1832 Lyell Princ. Geol. II. vi. 98 On these green isles of the\nMississippi,..the pistia and nenuphar display their yellow flowers.\n1858 O. W. Holmes Aut. Breakf.-t. x. (1891) 250 The stream with..clustering\nnenuphars Sprinkling its mirrored blue like golden-chaliced stars!\n1874 A. O'Shaughnessy Music & Moonlight 14 Here and there great lakes of\nnenuphar And lustrous lotos glimmered.\n— b. petty nenuphar, applied by Turner (apparently) to the Marsh Marigold.\nObs.\n1548 Turner Names Herbs (E.D.S.) 26 It groweth in watery middowes with a\nleafe like a water Rose, wherefore it may be called also Petie nunefar\n[sic].\n2. Ent. (See quot.) rare1.\n1852 T. W. Harris Insects New Eng. 66 A small beetle of the weevil tribe,\ncalled Rhynchænus Nenuphar, the Nenuphar or plum-weevil.\n\n-alga" } ] } ] }