{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1738", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1738, "subject": "The calendar", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-08-11T16:35:40+00:00", "last": "1999-08-12T06:45:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-08-11T16:35:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The calendar", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only recall a single instance when a specific date is mentioned in\nthe Urth cycle, and that is only a day of an unnamed month. After the\nelevation of Roche and Drotte to journeymen, the same calendar year as\nSeverian's near drowning and his encounter with Vodalus, Roche knocks on the\ndoor of the apprentices' dormitory to collect Sev and take him to the House\nAzure. He knocks because he no longer lives there, as journeymen have their\nown rooms. Sev is then captain of apprentices. Roche remarks: \"Today is\nwhat? The eighteenth--it's been under three weeks.\" The \"under three weeks\"\nrefers to the elapsed time since the Feast of Holy Katharine and his\nelevation. (I, VIII)\n\nThe Feast occurs in spring, which, because the seasons are six months out\nof phase in the Southern Hemisphere, comes after the warm weather of summer\nwhen it was warm enough to swim, which came earlier that same calendar year.\nThe winter in which he discovered Triskele and Valeria fell between the\nfight in the necropolis and the Feast. In an appendix to CLAW Wolfe notes\nthat the months are lunar, lasting 28 days, and the weeks are 7 days. He\nalso notes that a watch is 1/10 of a night, or about 1 hour and 15 minutes.\nThis figure must be based on the average length of a night, which works out\nto 12½ hours. Therefore in Sev's era the days are 25-hour days. Also, in\nSWORD, in the story that Cyriaca tells of the founding of Ultan's library,\nshe notes that the years used to be longer than they are now (III, VI).\n\nSt. Catherine's Day is Nov. 25. (I should say \"was\": contrary to Wolfe's\nopinion as to the historicity of the saint, the Vatican, in an attempt to\npurge its vast pantheon of some of its more dubious saints and martyrs,\nabolished her feast day, amongst others, in 1969.) At any rate, we are not\ntold just how much shorter the year is in Sev's day than now, or if there\nare 12 or 13 months in the year. 25-hour days, for 28 days, would equal\nabout 29.17 of our days per month. A 12-month year would then equal about\n350 of our days per year, 13 months 379 days, which is too many. A 12-month\nyear in Sev's era would equal 336 days, 13 months 364 days. This latter\nfigure is too close to our own year to be noteworthy, so it would seem that\nthe year would most likely be 12 months. I mention both sets of figures\nbecause I am trying to reconcile Urth's calendar with Earth's.\n\nAlternately, the shorter year could simply be attributed to the longer day.\nIf Urth's orbit of the sun is the same length as Earth's, then the Urth year\nwould be 350 of its days. The problem with this figure is that it would\nyield 12½ 28-day months per year.\n\nIf the surviving details of the torturers' feast day are any indication,\nit's not likely that the date would be forgotten. If the year is 12 months,\nlike ours, then the month that Roche mentioned it was the eighteenth of\nshould be the equivalent of our December. But from Nov. 25 to Dec. 18 is not\n\"under three weeks\", by Earth's calendar. Even if you grant that the\n\"November\" of Urth has but 28 days, the eighteenth of the following month\nwould fall exactly 21 days later, which is still not \"under three weeks\".\nSo, as I said, since this is the only date mentioned in the series, I assume\nWolfe attached some significance to it. Anyone know what that might be, or\nhow Roche's statement can be reconciled with the calendar?\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-08-11T19:31:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The calendar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nI have done a lot of work on the calendar, so allow me to share a few notes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wrote:\nI can only recall a single instance when a specific date is mentioned in\nthe Urth cycle, and that is only a day of an unnamed month." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Hallowmass Eve (which is to say, the full of the Spading Moon),\" (\"The\nCat,\" first few pages). This is probably the best of all calendar\nreferences in the text. The months each have many names, according to\nWolfe (when I asked him): the Spading Moon shows a good example of one. It\nreinforces the Lunar nature of the Commonwealth calendar, as well as the\nagricultural sense (Spading Moon), and the religious sense (Hallowmass Eve,\naka Halloween). There is also the suggestion that the previous month is\nthe Harvest Moon.\n\nThat is to say: we have Harvest Moon (first full moon after Sep 23) and\nHunter's Moon (the full moon after Harvest Moon); Spading might be equal to\nHarvest, but to get closer to our Halloween, Spading must instead be\nHunter's Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roche remarks: \"Today is\nwhat? The eighteenth--it's been under three weeks.\" The \"under three weeks\"\nrefers to the elapsed time since the Feast of Holy Katharine and his\nelevation. (I, VIII)\n\nThe Feast occurs in spring, which, because the seasons are six months out\nof phase in the Southern Hemisphere, comes after the warm weather of summer\nwhen it was warm enough to swim, which came earlier that same calendar year." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First of all, the Feast occurs \"in the fading of winter\"; i.e., somewhere\nbetween Aug 1 and Sep 23.\n\nNext, as in Biblical times, one tells the date by looking at the Moon: it\nis hung there in the sky as a calendar. It seems, judging from the court\nschedule at Thrax, that the month begins on New Moon (which of course makes\nperfect sense!).\n\nNext, let's establish some hard numbers:\n\nASTRON. EVENT DATE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE EVENT\nVernal Equinox Mar 20 Southern Hemisphere Autumn begins\nmid-Spring May 1 mid-Autumn\nSummer Solstice Jun 21 S. Hemisphere Winter begins\nmid-Summer Aug 1 mid-Winter\nAutumnal Equinox Sep 23 S. Hemisphere Spring begins\nmid-Autumn Nov 1 mid-Spring\nWinter Solstice Dec 22 S. Hemisphere Summer begins\nmid-Winter Feb 1 mid-Summer\n\n(Southern Hemisphere dwellers please chime in regarding the ballpark\naccuracy of these numbers)\n\nTHUS\n. . . the Spading Moon of the Commonwealth should fall somewhere around May\n1, and, if Halloween is here, too, then it has been shifted along to match\nthe proper season (local Autumn).\n\n. . . New Year's Day in the Commonwealth is apparantly on the first New\nMoon after Summer has begun (i.e., Dec 22), that is, somewhere between Dec\n23 and Feb 1." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The winter in which he discovered Triskele and Valeria fell between the\nfight in the necropolis and the Feast. In an appendix to CLAW Wolfe notes\nthat the months are lunar, lasting 28 days, and the weeks are 7 days. He\nalso notes that a watch is 1/10 of a night, or about 1 hour and 15 minutes.\nThis figure must be based on the average length of a night, which works out\nto 12½ hours. Therefore in Sev's era the days are 25-hour days. Also, in\nSWORD, in the story that Cyriaca tells of the founding of Ultan's library,\nshe notes that the years used to be longer than they are now (III, VI)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stop. The \"watch\" as a unit of time is =seasonally= variable. The long\nwatches of a winter night really =are= longer than the short watches of a\nsummer night (historical note: this is close to the way time was reckoned\nin Japan--the Dutch even made variable clocks for them, with levers that\nshifted through the seasons). The only time the night is really 12 hours\nlong is at the equinoxes.\n\nLunar month is ballpark 28 days; but more accurately 29.53 days (for\nphases) or 27.322 days (for both revolution and sidereal day). (You can\nsee why the ballpark figure is so handy!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "St. Catherine's Day is Nov. 25. (I should say \"was\": contrary to Wolfe's\nopinion as to the historicity of the saint, the Vatican, in an attempt to\npurge its vast pantheon of some of its more dubious saints and martyrs,\nabolished her feast day, amongst others, in 1969.) At any rate, we are not\ntold just how much shorter the year is in Sev's day than now, or if there\nare 12 or 13 months in the year." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lunar calendars have thirteen months (13 x 28 = 364). Period. They never\nmatch up to solar calendar time, but nobody cares--the seasons (solar\ndetermined) are floating anchor points in the Commonwealth, and on Earth\nthe Islamic holidays drift from season to season.\n\nIf my hard numbers are roughly correct, Nov 25 is (S.H.) late Spring rather\nthan late Winter. Granted, the feast day may have been shifted to match\nthe proper season, except that where it is (late Winter, according to text)\nisn't exactly the proper season (mid-Autumn--where C's feast day is in\nN.Hemisphere).\n\nMORE HARD NUMBERS\nCatherine Alex. -- Nov 25\nCatherine Geno. -- Sep 15\nCatherine Sien. -- Apr 29/30\nCatherine Swed. -- Mar 24\n\nComparing these numbers with the other numbers, it seems as though\nCatherine of Genoa has a feast day at the time closest to the target. FWIW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "25-hour days, for 28 days," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stop. I strongly resist the idea that the Urth days are 25 hours long.\nAll the other numbers match up to ancient calendar methods, I don't see why\nthe length of day would be different.\n\nGranted, one avenue I have not explored is: given that Lune is closer in\norbit, what sort of (slower) velocity must it have to maintain a 28 day\nperiod. (And maybe it is exactly 28 days, instead of some fraction?)\n\nFurthermore, there is, naturally, the gap between astronomical seasons and\nperceived seasons. In part this is probably due to the fact that seasonal\nweather (the features that alert us to \"season\") takes a bit longer or\nshorter to develop. Boundaries are fuzzy. So when Severian talks of\nseasonal weather, it is quite vague. December seems like Winter to me, but\n21 days of it ain't (go figure).\n\nAnyway, there's a pile of notes for you--happy hunting!\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1999-08-12T00:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The calendar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stop. The \"watch\" as a unit of time is =seasonally= variable. The long\nwatches of a winter night really =are= longer than the short watches of a\nsummer night (historical note: this is close to the way time was reckoned\nin Japan--the Dutch even made variable clocks for them, with levers that\nshifted through the seasons). The only time the night is really 12 hours\nlong is at the equinoxes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The lengths of hours changed in Europe, too, until about the fourteenth\ncentury (and the invention of mechanical clocks.) Adjusting a water\nclock is not difficult: inscribe different scales for different months.\nSundials are self-adjusting, of course.\n\nIt appears that most timepieces in the Commonwealth are of the variable-\nspeed kind. Dr. Talos refers to the Autarch's star-made clock specifically\nas an 'isochronon' -- suggesting that this is unusual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lunar calendars have thirteen months (13 x 28 = 364). Period. They never\nmatch up to solar calendar time, but nobody cares--the seasons (solar\ndetermined) are floating anchor points in the Commonwealth, and on Earth\nthe Islamic holidays drift from season to season." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But \"the Spading Moon\" suggests that there is some correspondence between\nthe calendar and the solar year. I suppose you could intercalate an\nentire month at need, as the Jewish calendar does....\n\nraster at highfiber.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-08-12T06:45:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The calendar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wrote:\n\"Hallowmass Eve (which is to say, the full of the Spading Moon),\" (\"The\nCat,\" first few pages). This is probably the best of all calendar\nreferences in the text. The months each have many names, according to\nWolfe (when I asked him): the Spading Moon shows a good example of one. It\nreinforces the Lunar nature of the Commonwealth calendar, as well as the\nagricultural sense (Spading Moon), and the religious sense (Hallowmass Eve,\naka Halloween). There is also the suggestion that the previous month is\nthe Harvest Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is to say: we have Harvest Moon (first full moon after Sep 23) and\nHunter's Moon (the full moon after Harvest Moon); Spading might be equal to\nHarvest, but to get closer to our Halloween, Spading must instead be\nHunter's Moon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THUS\n. . . the Spading Moon of the Commonwealth should fall somewhere around May\n1, and, if Halloween is here, too, then it has been shifted along to match\nthe proper season (local Autumn)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, your definition of the Harvest Moon is incorrect. As stated, the\nHarvest Moon could occur as late as October 21 (in the Northern Hemisphere),\nwhich is not so. The Harvest Moon is the full moon nearest the autumnal\nequinox, that is, a fortnight either side of the equinox. While I am\nfamiliar with the Harvest and Hunter's Moons, I have not heard of a Spading\nMoon. It would seem to me, however, that spading would be associated with\nplanting time, not harvesting time, as you have it. In spring, when the\nground is readied for planting, it is plowed (or spaded if no plow is\navailable). This, in the Commonwealth, would happen six months away from May\n1, around Nov. 1, which is, precisely, All Hallows, just as it says in \"The\nCat\". Only, it is mid-spring in the Commonwealth, not mid-autumn, and has\nnothing to do with the Harvest Moon, which would happen near the autumnal\nequinox in March.\n\nThinking upside-down makes my head hurt. \n\nRoy" } ] } ] }