{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1739", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1739, "subject": "Seasons", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-08-12T03:10:11+00:00", "last": "1999-08-12T11:01:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-08-12T03:10:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seasons", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First of all, the Feast occurs \"in the fading of winter\"; i.e., somewhere\nbetween Aug 1 and Sep 23." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think you're too early, and that the text bears me out. When Severian\nsays that the feast occurs \"in the fading of winter\", I believe that he is\nreferring to the \"perceived seasons\" you mention, not the \"astronomical\nseasons\". Remember, Urth is already feeling the effects of the damaged sun.\nWinter comes earlier and lasts longer than it used to. There is textual\nsupport for the Feast of Holy Katharine taking place in the spring. Sometime\nduring the \"under three weeks\" between the feast at which Drotte and Roche\nwere elevated and the trip to the House Azure, Sev made his trip to Ultan's\nlibrary to fetch the four books for Thecla. While there:\n\n \"I told Cyby that I was honored to meet him, and asked, somewhat\ntimidly, what the feast day of the curators was...\"\n \"It is now passed,\" Master Ultan said. He looked toward me as he spoke,\nand in the candlelight I could see that his eyes were the color of watered\nmilk. \"In early spring. It is a beautiful day. The trees put out their new\nleaves then, in most years.\"\n\nA little farther down the page Ultan adds, in part: \"I suppose we are one of\nthe spring sights of Nessus, in our little way.\" (I, VI)\n\n Now, if the curators' feast is passed and it took place in early spring,\nthen the torturers' feast, just passed, also took place in spring. Indirect\nevidence from the text is the fact that the actual feast--the meal--took\nplace outdoors, something not likely to be done in winter. The snowstorm on\nthe night of the trip to the House Azure was a fluke--nothing like it\noccurred three weeks after the feast the following year when Sev was\nelevated. Thecla's suicide took place two days after Sev's elevation to\njourneyman. Eleven days after that he left the citadel to begin his exile.\nFour nights later is when he and Dorcas met up with the thespians and Dr.\nTalos was striking at wild flowers with his cane--spring growth, which was\neven more apparent a week or so later when they were at the House Absolute\nand the trees and flowers were in bloom.\n\n Sev met Dorcas the day after he left the citadel. In SWORD (page 7) he\nlaments: \"While we had been journeying together (and we had been traveling\nwith greater or lesser expedition from the moment in the Garden of Endless\nSleep when Dorcas helped me clamber, half-drowned, onto the floating walkway\nof the sedge) it had been as equals and companions, each of us walking every\nleague we covered on our feet or riding our own mount.\" Now Sev sees that\nthey are not equals and have drifted apart. On the next page he says:\n\"...we, who had been incessantly together throughout the latter part of the\nspring, came now in summer to see each other hardly at all,...\". (III, I)\nSev defines their journey as beginning when she pulled him from the water\nand the time period as being late spring, which fits perfectly their meeting\n*after* Nov 25, which is late spring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "MORE HARD NUMBERS\nCatherine Alex. -- Nov 25\nCatherine Geno. -- Sep 15\nCatherine Sien. -- Apr 29/30\nCatherine Swed. -- Mar 24" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Comparing these numbers with the other numbers, it seems as though\nCatherine of Genoa has a feast day at the time closest to the target.\nFWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " In \"The Feast of Saint Catherine\" in OTTER, Wolfe specifies Catherine of\nAlexandria. I don't think it is a moveable feast, like Easter. Maxentius, as\nyou know, was the main rival of Constantine the Great for control of the\nwestern part of the Roman empire. The defeat of Maxentius at the battle of\nthe Milvian Bridge in 312 was the occasion for Constantine's famous vision,\nwhich paved the way for Christianity to become the state religion. I'm sure\nWolfe appreciated Maxentius getting his comeuppance. Nov. 25, while two\nmonths into the astronomical spring of the Commonwealth, may well be\ndescribed as \"in the fading of winter\", because of the longer winters of\nUrth, which the fluke snowstorm that year was an indication of.\n\n So, how do you explain Cyriaca's claim that the years used to be longer?\n\n There is another temporal anomaly when Sev returns from the library. In\nthe closing paragraph of chapter VI he mentions that he had been \"two\nwatches at least on a simple errand\". He hurries back to his tower where it\nis time to feed the prisoners. Drotte being occupied, he brought Thecla her\nmeal and the four books, meeting her for the first time . (chapter VII) He\nthen returns Drotte's keys. There is a break in the text, then:\n\n\"On the next day but one, I was summoned to Master Gurloes.\" In the very\nnext paragraph Gurloes says: \"A week ago, or a little less, I sent you to\nthe archivist,\" he said. I nodded.\" Two days does not a week make. What is\ngoing on here?\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-08-12T11:01:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Seasons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nGood job in showing that the Feast of Holy Katherine occurs in early\nSpring! It is very convincing and I'm willing to go along with it.\n\nThis would appear to be a compromise on your earlier position, as well,\nsince while you see the text supports it, you also tacitly acknowledge that\nNov 25 falls in the =fading= of S. Hemisphere Spring.\n\n=====\nASTRON. EVENT DATE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE EVENT\nVernal Equinox Mar 20 Southern Hemisphere Autumn begins\nmid-Spring May 1 mid-Autumn\nSummer Solstice Jun 21 S. Hemisphere Winter begins\nmid-Summer Aug 1 mid-Winter\nAutumnal Equinox Sep 23 S. Hemisphere Spring begins\nmid-Autumn Nov 1 mid-Spring\n+Feast of Cath. A. Nov 25 last quarter of Spring+\nWinter Solstice Dec 22 S. Hemisphere Summer begins\nmid-Winter Feb 1 mid-Summer\n====\n\n(I hope you don't mind my using this one again, slightly amended. You\nseemed to be floundering a bit on the S. Hemisphere seasonal thing, in your\nfirst post.)\n\nOf course, the devil of dealing with seasonal weather is geographical\nlattitude, which isn't a problem if you know roughly where you are (and\nwith the Commonwealth, we don't). (Geographical details also play a part\nwith local weather: San Francisco is notorious for its cold Summers,\nespecially in contrast to \"California Summer.\")\n\nThat is, when Severian walks North he is walking toward (or into?) the\ntropics. There is a similar effect when he comes down Mount Typhon--iirc,\nhe talks of walking through seasons.\n\nOTOH, if a person lives his whole life in the place he was born, and this\nperson says that local Spring weather had arrived, then he is right, of\ncourse: it doesn't matter if he is in Alaska, Oregon, or Southern\nCalifornia . . . these differences in lattitude will have some effect in\nobjective terms but not subjective terms.\n\nAnyway, part of the experiment is to recognize that there are many\ndifferent calendar types/traditions at play: astronomical, religious, and\nagricultural (at least).\n\nAnother tool at your disposal is Precession of the Equinox. Maybe your\nquestion boils down to: at what year will Scorpius be located at (or near)\nthe Point of Aries (i.e., Vernal Equinox)?\n\nRe: Spading Moon. Yes, sorry I gave the ballpark figure for Harvest\nMoon--I suppose I should have given the complete data, and then explained\nthat since the Commonwealth month is =defined= by the Moon, that it will\nhappen every year in roughly this place (but I felt I was running rather\nlong already). Furthermore, I should have mentioned that I could not find\nany reference elsewhere to \"Spading Moon,\" nor any named Moons around the\nVernal Equinox (maybe a Farmer's Almanac would help here?); and yes,\nSpading sounds more like a Springtime thing to me, too, and I neglected to\nmention that tangent--in part because I was keeping Halloween in the Autumn\nwhere it belongs in Western tradition (as opposed to the fading of Winter,\nwhere its festival of the ghosts was celebrated in ancient Rome and Japan\nto this day), and in context, because Wolfe wrote it for the 1983 World\nFantasy Con book (WFC happens over Halloween weekend every year)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " So, how do you explain Cyriaca's claim that the years used to be longer?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a common Earth saying--haven't you ever heard it before? People\nsay it about their own childhoods. I would never take it literally in\nEarth's case, but I can easily see why it could be an option in Urth\nstudies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " There is another temporal anomaly when Sev returns from the library. In\nthe closing paragraph of chapter VI he mentions that he had been \"two\nwatches at least on a simple errand\". He hurries back to his tower where it\nis time to feed the prisoners. Drotte being occupied, he brought Thecla her\nmeal and the four books, meeting her for the first time . (chapter VII) He\nthen returns Drotte's keys. There is a break in the text, then:\n\n\"On the next day but one, I was summoned to Master Gurloes.\" In the very\nnext paragraph Gurloes says: \"A week ago, or a little less, I sent you to\nthe archivist,\" he said. I nodded.\" Two days does not a week make. What is\ngoing on here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, in English we have the phrase \"last week.\" On Monday, you might say,\n\"Hey, did you see that TV movie last week?\" The movie in question was on\nFriday, only three days ago.\n\nIf my calculations are correct, Thecla arrived on the 14th of the month.\nOn the 15th, people could refer to this as \"yesterday\" or \"last week\"\n(since a new week has begun) or its equivalent, \"a week ago.\"\n\nSeverian went to the Library on the 15th, \"the next week\" after Thecla\narrived.\n\nAdded to all this, and perhaps more germane, I think that Master is trying\nto downplay the importance, trying to make Thecla out as being just another\nclient, buried among all the daily chores, etc. This is a fairly clear\nfumble on his part, so he then shifts into the opposite mode--trying to\nimpress upon the youngster that she is very important, very special, so\ndon't mess up.\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }