{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1755", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1755, "subject": "Calendars", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-08-19T14:31:24+00:00", "last": "1999-08-23T09:01:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-08-19T14:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Calendars", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How are all the deductions about calendars and saints' days affected\nby the idea of the Commonwealth being in the Southern Hemisphere?\nPersonally I'm convinced that it's North of the Equator. Does that\nchange anything?\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-08-20T14:33:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Calendars", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Peter Westlake wrote:\nHow are all the deductions about calendars and saints' days affected\nby the idea of the Commonwealth being in the Southern Hemisphere?\nPersonally I'm convinced that it's North of the Equator. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True North or magnetic North?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-08-22T21:34:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Calendars", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:33 1999-08-20 -0400, Michael Straight wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Peter Westlake wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How are all the deductions about calendars and saints' days affected\nby the idea of the Commonwealth being in the Southern Hemisphere?\nPersonally I'm convinced that it's North of the Equator. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True North or magnetic North?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True North. Quite possibly magnetic South, but I don't insist on that.\nThe fauna and flora of the Commonwealth are all South American, but\nnot all of South America is in the Southern Hemisphere. When Severian\nis walking along the coast in _Citadel_, chapter XXXII, \"The Samru\",\nhe says that the land is to the East and the sea to the West [1]. So\nhe's on the West coast. Then he walks North, with the sun rising on his\nright. There would be nothing wrong with that if it were true, but\nI don't think it is. Severian has a perfect memory, but seems unable\nto follow directions. He *always* gets lost. Every single time. If he\nhasn't misremembered the directions, he must be misinterpreting them,\nand I believe he has left and right mixed up. In that case the Sun is\non the left, and he is heading what we would call \"South\". This idea\nhas the advantage that it explains \"the isles of the South\" where\nHellvard's people hunt walruses. The ones in our South are close to\nthe coast, and too close to the expanded icecap of the cooling world;\nHellvard hunts in the Caribbean.\n\nSBear.\n\n[1] conclusively disproving the theory of Nessus as Buenos Aires,\n I think?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-08-23T01:05:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Calendars", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SBear. wrote:\nTrue North. Quite possibly magnetic South, but I don't insist on that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fauna and flora of the Commonwealth are all South American, but\nnot all of South America is in the Southern Hemisphere. When Severian\nis walking along the coast in _Citadel_, chapter XXXII, \"The Samru\",\nhe says that the land is to the East and the sea to the West [1]. So\nhe's on the West coast. Then he walks North, with the sun rising on his\nright. There would be nothing wrong with that if it were true, but\nI don't think it is. Severian has a perfect memory, but seems unable\nto follow directions. He *always* gets lost. Every single time. If he\nhasn't misremembered the directions, he must be misinterpreting them,\nand I believe he has left and right mixed up. In that case the Sun is\non the left, and he is heading what we would call \"South\". This idea\nhas the advantage that it explains \"the isles of the South\" where\nHellvard's people hunt walruses. The ones in our South are close to\nthe coast, and too close to the expanded icecap of the cooling world;\nHellvard hunts in the Caribbean.<<\n--------------------------------------------------\n\n The Gyoll flows roughly north to south. It's mouth is on the\nsouthwestern coast of the continent, it's headwaters near Thrax. Yes,\nSeverian can't follow directions, but he does get where he's going,\neventually! Nessus has been creeping upriver for millennia, as the river\ngets too polluted. The Citadel was once north of the city, but in Sev's day\nis on the southern fringes of the living city. Whenever Sev failed to follow\ndirections he compensated, after beginning his journey to Thrax, by tending\nto keep traveling north. He went first from Nessus to Saltus, then to Thrax,\neventually ending up in the jungles of the equatorial zone, always going\nnorth, following, roughly, the course of the Gyoll upstream. From the\npenultimate paragraph of SHADOW:\n\n\"And surely when I entered this second gate, I began again to walk a new\nroad. From that great gate forward, for a long time, it was to lie outside\nthe City Imperishable and among the forests and grasslands, mountains and\njungles of the north.\"\n\n Agia said, on the last page of SHADOW, chapter XIX, \"The real jungle is\ndying in the north as the sun cools.\"\n\n Hallvard lived in very cold climes on the southern isles in\npolar-chilled waters. He mentions the growing season being short because of\nthe icy wind. As he says in the first paragraph of his story: \"...many\nstrange things happen in the isles of the south that you northern people\nnever dream of.\"\n\n Both Agia and Hallvard can't be wrong about their directions, too. No\ndoubt about it: the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere, in what we\ncall South America.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-08-23T09:01:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Calendars", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 01:05 1999-08-23 -0500, Roy wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The Gyoll flows roughly north to south. It's mouth is on the\nsouthwestern coast of the continent, it's headwaters near Thrax. Yes,\nSeverian can't follow directions, but he does get where he's going,\neventually! Nessus has been creeping upriver for millennia, as the river\ngets too polluted. The Citadel was once north of the city, but in Sev's day\nis on the southern fringes of the living city. Whenever Sev failed to follow\ndirections he compensated, after beginning his journey to Thrax, by tending\nto keep traveling north. He went first from Nessus to Saltus, then to Thrax,\neventually ending up in the jungles of the equatorial zone, always going\nnorth, following, roughly, the course of the Gyoll upstream. From the\npenultimate paragraph of SHADOW:\n\n\"And surely when I entered this second gate, I began again to walk a new\nroad. From that great gate forward, for a long time, it was to lie outside\nthe City Imperishable and among the forests and grasslands, mountains and\njungles of the north.\"\n\n Agia said, on the last page of SHADOW, chapter XIX, \"The real jungle is\ndying in the north as the sun cools.\"\n\n Hallvard lived in very cold climes on the southern isles in\npolar-chilled waters. He mentions the growing season being short because of\nthe icy wind. As he says in the first paragraph of his story: \"...many\nstrange things happen in the isles of the south that you northern people\nnever dream of.\"\n\n Both Agia and Hallvard can't be wrong about their directions, too. No\ndoubt about it: the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere, in what we\ncall South America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They aren't wrong about North and South, nor is Severian. I don't claim\nhe gets compass directions wrong, just left and right. As you say, he\ndoesn't get lost when he's going North; but I challenge you to find a\nsingle instance of his following instructions and not getting lost.\nOn reflection, I shouldn't have said he can't follow \"directions\"\nbecause that means both compass directions and instructions, and it\nwould be hard to think of an ambiguity more likely to cause confusion\nin this context than that - sorry! Does it make more sense now?\n\nHallvard lived in the Caribbean, \"South\" of Central America. Keep going\n\"North\" and you pass through the jungles, through Ecuador, and on \"North\"\ntowards the Antarctic icecap, which *must* extend further than it does now.\nThe ice at the other pole stretched right down into Britain during the\nice ages, and that was with the Sun at full strength.\n\nSBear." } ] } ] }