{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1759", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1759, "subject": "Latitudes", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-08-24T00:30:58+00:00", "last": "1999-08-24T14:48:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-08-24T00:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latitudes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SBear wrote:\nHallvard lived in the Caribbean, \"South\" of Central America. Keep going\n\"North\" and you pass through the jungles, through Ecuador, and on \"North\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "towards the Antarctic icecap, which *must* extend further than it does now.\nThe ice at the other pole stretched right down into Britain during the\nice ages, and that was with the Sun at full strength.<<\n\nI realize that your usage of \"North\" and \"South\" in what I quoted above is\nintentionally wrong, meant to convey Severian's presumed confusion over left\nand right, and does not reflect upon your own knowledge of geography. I will\njust point out:\n\nBoth polar icecaps will have expanded on Urth in Severian's time, due to the\nfailing sun, and both the Northern and Southern Temperate Zones will have\nshrunk in the direction of the tropics.\n\nThe Caribbean is in the tropics, roughly between 10 and 20 degrees north\nlatitude, \"north\" as reckoned both by the compass and the sun. The equator\ncrosses Ecuador, and all of the Caribbean Sea and West Indies are north of\nthe equator. The jungles you refer to in your scenario would be in Central\nAmerica and the northern part of South America. That well may be so, but the\njungles also extend to equivalent latitudes south of the equator. The bulk\nof the Commonwealth lies south of these jungles. Lake Diuturna lies at the\nnorthernmost limits of the Autarch's dominion, and is far north of Nessus.\n\nTo put it in perspective; Kingston, Jamaica (Northern Caribbean) is roughly\nas far north of the equator as La Paz, Bolivia (South America) is south of\nit.\n\nEven if Severian couldn't tell north from south, other characters can. As\nDorcas told him, repeating what her father had told her about bloodbats,\n\"they lived in the north, in the steaming forests at the center of the\nworld.\" (II, XXVIII) Or, having asked the herdsman for directions to Lake\nDiuturna, (II, XXIX) the herdsman told him it was \"to the north and the\nwest\" and that he would have to pass through the stone town: \"Try to pass\nthrough by day, with the sun over the right shoulder by morning and later in\nthe left eye.\" Those directions are absolutely correct for someone traveling\nin a northwesterly direction.\n\nFinally, to remove all doubt on this issue, read Hallvard's \"humorous\" story\nin the \"These Are the Jokes\" chapter of OTTER, wherein he says: \"In winter\nthe sun does not shine upon our isle at all. For a time the sky grows light,\nand then we know it is about noon; but the sun himself does not appear.\"\nHallvard's home isle is in the far south, close enough to the South Pole to\nbe subject to the days-long Antarctic night, far from tropical waters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I challenge you to find a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "single instance of his following instructions and not getting lost.<<\n\nLast two pages of SHADOW, chapter V, Rudesind directed him to Ultan. He\nfollowed directions and found him.\n\nChapter V, CLAW, Agia, in the fake \"Thecla\" note, gave directions to the\nmine, which he found without trouble.\n\nChapter XXI, CLAW, the \"cowled figure\" (Inire) directed him to the grounds\nof the thiasus. He found it without difficulty.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-08-24T09:33:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latitudes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:30 1999-08-24 -0500, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSBear wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hallvard lived in the Caribbean, \"South\" of Central America. Keep going\n\"North\" and you pass through the jungles, through Ecuador, and on \"North\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "towards the Antarctic icecap, which *must* extend further than it does now.\nThe ice at the other pole stretched right down into Britain during the\nice ages, and that was with the Sun at full strength.<<\n\nI realize that your usage of \"North\" and \"South\" in what I quoted above is\nintentionally wrong, meant to convey Severian's presumed confusion over left\nand right, and does not reflect upon your own knowledge of geography. I will\njust point out:\n\nBoth polar icecaps will have expanded on Urth in Severian's time, due to the\nfailing sun, and both the Northern and Southern Temperate Zones will have\nshrunk in the direction of the tropics.\n\nThe Caribbean is in the tropics, roughly between 10 and 20 degrees north\nlatitude, \"north\" as reckoned both by the compass and the sun. The equator\ncrosses Ecuador, and all of the Caribbean Sea and West Indies are north of\nthe equator. The jungles you refer to in your scenario would be in Central\nAmerica and the northern part of South America. That well may be so, but the\njungles also extend to equivalent latitudes south of the equator. The bulk\nof the Commonwealth lies south of these jungles. Lake Diuturna lies at the\nnorthernmost limits of the Autarch's dominion, and is far north of Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How far, I wonder? How big do we think the Commonwealth is?\nIt does seem a bit cramped, I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To put it in perspective; Kingston, Jamaica (Northern Caribbean) is roughly\nas far north of the equator as La Paz, Bolivia (South America) is south of\nit.\n\nEven if Severian couldn't tell north from south, other characters can. As" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the only thing I think he has wrong is Left and Right. Compass\ndirections pose no problem for him. I suggest that \"North\" means\nthe opposite in the time of the Commonwealth to what it does today.\nI'm sorry I didn't make that clear; my excuse is that I wrote about\nthis once some time ago, and probably thought I had explained it when\nI hadn't. You have to make allowances; I'm only a bear!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dorcas told him, repeating what her father had told her about bloodbats,\n\"they lived in the north, in the steaming forests at the center of the\nworld.\" (II, XXVIII) Or, having asked the herdsman for directions to Lake\nDiuturna, (II, XXIX) the herdsman told him it was \"to the north and the\nwest\" and that he would have to pass through the stone town: \"Try to pass\nthrough by day, with the sun over the right shoulder by morning and later in\nthe left eye.\" Those directions are absolutely correct for someone traveling\nin a northwesterly direction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So they are. Of course, I could always claim that this is consistent\nwith a reversed N and S and a mistaken L and R, and that the herdsman\nshares Severian's L-R confusion because he is really himself time\ntravelling again, but I don't think it would fly ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, to remove all doubt on this issue, read Hallvard's \"humorous\" story\nin the \"These Are the Jokes\" chapter of OTTER, wherein he says: \"In winter\nthe sun does not shine upon our isle at all. For a time the sky grows light,\nand then we know it is about noon; but the sun himself does not appear.\"\nHallvard's home isle is in the far south, close enough to the South Pole to\nbe subject to the days-long Antarctic night, far from tropical waters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That does seem pretty conclusive. Hardly consistent with a cooling\nworld, though? How come there's any unfrozen water that near the Pole?\nYou said yourself that the icecaps will have expanded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I challenge you to find a\nsingle instance of his following instructions and not getting lost.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Last two pages of SHADOW, chapter V, Rudesind directed him to Ultan. He\nfollowed directions and found him.\n\nChapter V, CLAW, Agia, in the fake \"Thecla\" note, gave directions to the\nmine, which he found without trouble.\n\nChapter XXI, CLAW, the \"cowled figure\" (Inire) directed him to the grounds\nof the thiasus. He found it without difficulty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah.\n\nStill, I can still say that he gets lost as often as not,\nand suggest that he just can't tell left from right, rather\nthan having them consistently backwards.\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-08-24T14:48:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latitudes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SBear wrote:\nAh.\n\nStill, I can still say that he gets lost as often as not,\nand suggest that he just can't tell left from right, rather\nthan having them consistently backwards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again with this \"Severian gets lost\" thing! :-) People have been\nraising this one for years, and I've never really understood why.\n\nSeverian gets lost because getting lost is a great plot device, and\na time-honoured one. If heroes always kept to the path like they\nwere told an awful lot of stories out there would be (a) shorter,\nand (b) duller. Do Jeff Goldblum and his buddy stay on the path in\nAmerican Werewolf in London? Do Bilbo and the dwarves stay on the\npath in The Hobbit? And look at the complete hash Jason and Odysseus\nmade of a simple piece of marine navigation.\n\nNot only does Severian manage to follow directions plenty of times,\nas Roy has shown, but when he does lose his way there always seem to\nbe mitigating circumstances, such as delirium on the way to the\nlazaret, or Idas's duplicity on board the Ship. Why saddle Sev with\nsome sort of rare direction-losing brain disorder on top of all his\nother peculiarities?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "jvoegele at carolla.com" }, "date": "1999-08-24T10:35:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latitudes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\n\nAgain with this \"Severian gets lost\" thing! :-) People have been\nraising this one for years, and I've never really understood why.\n\nSeverian gets lost because getting lost is a great plot device, and\na time-honoured one. If heroes always kept to the path like they\nwere told an awful lot of stories out there would be (a) shorter,\nand (b) duller. Do Jeff Goldblum and his buddy stay on the path in\nAmerican Werewolf in London? Do Bilbo and the dwarves stay on the\npath in The Hobbit? And look at the complete hash Jason and Odysseus\nmade of a simple piece of marine navigation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What we mustn't forget to realize, though, is that it's in Wolfe's\nnature to take a standard plot device and give it a twist. In fact,\nmuch of Wolfe's work seems to work on the level that movies like \"The\nLast American Hero\" or \"True Lies\" work--simultaneously spoofing the\ngenre while attempting to validate it. A plot device is rarely just a\nplot device, and the very presence of such a device in a Wolfe novel\nsuggests that something deeper we should be searching for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not only does Severian manage to follow directions plenty of times,\nas Roy has shown, but when he does lose his way there always seem to\nbe mitigating circumstances, such as delirium on the way to the\nlazaret, or Idas's duplicity on board the Ship. Why saddle Sev with\nsome sort of rare direction-losing brain disorder on top of all his\nother peculiarities?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this apparent (but, yes, arguable) inability to tell\nleft from right to be related in some way to the corridors of time. No\nhard evidence at this point, but whenever Sev gets lost I can't help but\nthink he's lost in four dimensions instead of just three.\n\n\nJason Voegele" } ] } ] }