{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1763", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1763, "subject": "Digest urth.v028.n024", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-08-29T21:12:42+00:00", "last": "1999-09-02T13:33:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at ibm.net" }, "date": "1999-08-29T21:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n024", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi, I'm new. Somewhat to my surprise, the archives search engine for this\nlist turns up no references to Zoroastrianism, so this may not be\ncompletely old ground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Jim, nice to see you.\n\nActually, the subject has come up, though quite a long time back. I haven't\ntried the new search engine, so can't speak to that. But I know the creation\nmyth, and had discussed it with mantis before we two jumped on board\n(another story), and I do remember that it came up here in a fairly long\nthread on Dr. Talos's play.\n\nBut you do bring up interesting new matters. I had thought of the Ascians\nalmost entirely as Wolfe's satire of Communism or any group demanding\nCorrect Thought and I tend to think of Zoroastrianism as a fairly forgiving\nand nonintrusive religion (I lived in Bombay for a few years during my teens\nand had Parsi friends---believe me, compared to the horrors of the Hindu\ncaste system, Parsis, who are all sort of honorary Brahmins, have it good).\nSo I am a little uncomfortable with your analogy, \"ironic\" though it be.\nHow, btw, do you fit the hierodules into this design? Or don't they fit,\nsince they don't seem to have anything to do with the Ascians?\n\nAs to the geography question, since I disagree with just about everyone, I\nwon't confront that except to say that yes, they are in the southern\nhemisphere (everyone will agree on that), but plate techtonics have been at\nwork, and no, they are not in South America (everyone will not agree on\nthat).\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then this morning, the following two things slammed into each other:\n\n\"The most important thing about Zoroastrianism is the dedication\nto ethical and moral excellence. The motto of the faith is:\n GOOD THOUGHTS, GOOD WORDS, GOOD DEEDS.\"\nalt.religion.zoroastrianism FAQ\n\n\"And the Ascian, his voice no louder than my own had been, and\nperhaps even softer, answered, 'How shall the state be most\nvigorous? It shall be most vigorous when it is without conflict.\nHow shall disagreement be banished? By banishing the four causes\nof disagreement: lies, foolish talk, boastful talk, and talk\nwhich serves only to incite quarrels. How shall the four causes\nbe banished? By speaking only correct thought. Then shall the\nstate be without disagreement. Being without disagrement it\nshall be without conflict. Being without conflict it shall be\nvigorous, strong and secure.' \"\nCITADEL V, last page\n\nSo CORRECT THOUGHTS become CORRECT WORDS which lead to CORRECT DEEDS.\nIt seems like it could be an ironic transformation of the Zoroastrian\nmotto, a secularized heresy if you will." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-09-02T13:33:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n024", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Alice Turner\n\nHi Jim, nice to see you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, the subject has come up, though quite a long time\nback. I haven't\ntried the new search engine, so can't speak to that. But I know\nthe creation\nmyth, and had discussed it with mantis before we two jumped on board\n(another story), and I do remember that it came up here in a fairly long\nthread on Dr. Talos's play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll have to track that down. I couldn't imagine that Zoroastrianism was a\ncompletely foreign topic on the list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But you do bring up interesting new matters. I had thought of the Ascians\nalmost entirely as Wolfe's satire of Communism or any group demanding\nCorrect Thought and I tend to think of Zoroastrianism as a\nfairly forgiving\nand nonintrusive religion (I lived in Bombay for a few years\nduring my teens\nand had Parsi friends---believe me, compared to the horrors of the Hindu\ncaste system, Parsis, who are all sort of honorary Brahmins,\nhave it good).\nSo I am a little uncomfortable with your analogy, \"ironic\" though it be.\nHow, btw, do you fit the hierodules into this design? Or don't they fit,\nsince they don't seem to have anything to do with the Ascians?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, good questions.\n\nFirst, I have nothing against the Parsis myself, except that the view of\nsome of the more traditional sectors that one may not even _convert_ to the\nreligion goes so far in the direction of \"nonintrusive\" that it comes out\nthe other side into elitism, IMHO. And to the extent there is anything at\nall to my \"Correct Thought/Good Thoughts\" notion, I was a little mild in my\nlanguage in the first post. While I said \"secular heresy\" I might as easily\nhave said \"_perversion_\" of the Zoroastrian motto. And its very secularism\nconstitutes (in the eyes of the devout, including, I would presume, Wolfe\nhimself) the bulk of the perversion.\n\nIn that case, Correct Thought would stand in relation to the Z-flavored\nreligion of the Commonwealth (and the rest of Urth?) as Marxism/Leninism\nstands in relation to the millenarian aspirations of Judaism/Christianity.\n(If you care, I am neither devout nor Marxist.) I don't doubt that you are\nright that the first impulse behind the portrayal of the Ascians was\nprobably Wolfe's own experiences with Communist prisoners in the Korean\nWar, though. And there remains the possibility that I'm all wet when it\ncomes to the rest of it.\n\nBut ignoring the possibility of my own error for a minute (for as long as\npossible, really!), yeah, I'd say you can ignore the heirodules when\naccounting for Ascian thought because Ascian thought itself seems to ignore\nthe heirodules. But in a different though related direction, if we came up\nwith seven named heirogrammates (or maybe just heirodules) it would be\ntempting to try to link them with the seven Attributes of the Gathas. At\nthat point we'd probably see that I was pushing the analogy too far.\n\nStill, Zoroastrians do worship before a sacred fire..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As to the geography question, since I disagree with just about\neveryone, I\nwon't confront that except to say that yes, they are in the southern\nhemisphere (everyone will agree on that), but plate techtonics\nhave been at\nwork, and no, they are not in South America (everyone will not agree on\nthat)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must reluctantly agree with you here, which is too bad, because I really\nwant it to be Argentina and Buenos Aires. If only the mountains and the sea\nwere reversed! I'll bet it's Typhon's fault...\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"We can't be certain who the villains are\ncause everyone's so pretty\"\n -- Sheryl Crow" } ] } ] }