{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1768", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1768, "subject": "Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-09-03T11:57:32+00:00", "last": "1999-09-05T14:19:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "DhSunanda", "address": "dhsunanda at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-09-03T15:34:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"And the Ascian, his voice no louder than my own had been, and\nperhaps even softer, answered, 'How shall the state be most\nvigorous? It shall be most vigorous when it is without conflict.\nHow shall disagreement be banished? By banishing the four causes\nof disagreement: lies, foolish talk, boastful talk, and talk\nwhich serves only to incite quarrels. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, I'm new too, and the archive search doesn't seem to work for me, so I \ndon't know if the Buddhist side of the Ascians has been discussed before. I \nknow nothing about Zoroastrianism, but the Ascian's talk struck me on first \nreading as a parody of both Communist and Buddhist texts. Leaving aside the \nCommunist....\n\n'How can a state be vigorous?' is a question asked of the Buddha (via an \nintermediary) by King Ajatasattu about the Vajjians. (Ajatasattu wants to use \nthe answer to subvert the Vajjian State, and thus wage a winning war). The \nBuddha lists 48 conditions that under which a state might be expected to \nprosper and not decline.\n\nThe four causes of disagreement are a direct translation, if slight \nrearrangement, of the traditional four speech precepts ('I undertake to \nabstain from false speech, harsh speech, useless speech, slanderous speech'). \nTraditional Buddhist precepts (guidelines for ethical action) are divided \ninto those for the body (physical actions), those for the speech \n(communication acts) and those for the mind (wrong views about reality)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-09-03T11:57:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DhSunanda wrote:\n'How can a state be vigorous?' is a question asked of the Buddha (via an \nintermediary) by King Ajatasattu about the Vajjians. (Ajatasattu wants to use \nthe answer to subvert the Vajjian State, and thus wage a winning war). The \nBuddha lists 48 conditions that under which a state might be expected to \nprosper and not decline." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The four causes of disagreement are a direct translation, if slight \nrearrangement, of the traditional four speech precepts ('I undertake to \nabstain from false speech, harsh speech, useless speech, slanderous speech'). \nTraditional Buddhist precepts (guidelines for ethical action) are divided \ninto those for the body (physical actions), those for the speech \n(communication acts) and those for the mind (wrong views about reality)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, then, is Wolfe parodying the Buddhist text, or the Ascian version\nthereof? After all, what Loyal-17 says most strongly suggests that the\nproblem is (A) the restrictions imposed on the Ascians are in fact enforcing\n\"real speech\" to be translated through a medium that repeats lies (about\nthe wonderfulness of the Ascian way) and (B) it doesn't, in the end, \nprevent much from being said (the anti-Orwell/Whorfian subtext).\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-09-03T13:59:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of DhSunanda at aol.com\n\nThe four causes of disagreement are a direct translation, if slight \nrearrangement, of the traditional four speech precepts ('I undertake to \nabstain from false speech, harsh speech, useless speech, \nslanderous speech'). \nTraditional Buddhist precepts (guidelines for ethical action) \nare divided \ninto those for the body (physical actions), those for the speech \n(communication acts) and those for the mind (wrong views about reality)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. _That_ goes in the \"News You Can Use\" file. Thanks!\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart\n it's just the thought of someone sticking it in\"\n -- Graham Parker, \"Protection\" " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "DhSunanda", "address": "dhsunanda at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-09-04T21:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Alex," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, then, is Wolfe parodying the Buddhist text, or the Ascian version\n thereof? After all, what Loyal-17 says most strongly suggests that the\n problem is (A) the restrictions imposed on the Ascians are in fact \nenforcing\n \"real speech\" to be translated through a medium that repeats lies (about\n the wonderfulness of the Ascian way) and (B) it doesn't, in the end, \n prevent much from being said (the anti-Orwell/Whorfian subtext)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe quotes the Buddhist text pretty straight (if that is what he is \ndoing; he's a tricky writer to pin down), but the Ascians are using the \nteaching to create a State of mindless conformity. That's the exact opposite \nof what Buddhism aims at.\n\nIn that sense it is a parody of the Buddhist text. Wolfe could be parodying \nthe followers of religions in general, saying '\"look at the effects of \nmemorising texts rather than acting on their spirit\").\n\nOf course, as you point out reality can always break through cliche. That's \ntrue, but difficult. Doesn't Shadow somewhere near the beginning have a \nremark to the effect that concepts are much weaker than the words we use to \nbind them? (Sorry for not looking it up. My copy has unaccountably vanished).\n\nThe theme of innovation and experience versus tradition and ritual runs \nthrough all five Urth books." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-09-05T14:19:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, as you point out reality can always break through cliche. That's \ntrue, but difficult. Doesn't Shadow somewhere near the beginning have a \nremark to the effect that concepts are much weaker than the words we use to \nbind them? (Sorry for not looking it up. My copy has unaccountably vanished)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The theme of innovation and experience versus tradition and ritual runs \nthrough all five Urth books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what the reference is to--Severian's statement about symbols\n(the \"We believe we create symbols...\"), perhaps?\n\nAt any rate, as usual Wolfe is not presenting a simple black/white\ndichotomy between innovation and experience and \"cliches\". Vodalus is,\nin a real sense, the \"innovator\" as opposed to the Autarch. But Vodalus'\n\"reach for the stars, reclaim the future\" turns out to be a false coin,\nat best a weak parody of Typhon's malignant grandness, used as a tool both\nby the Autarch and by Erebus and Abaia. The torturer's guild is another\nprime example--the best of it is what remains of ancient traditions--the\nfeast of St. Catherine, etc. On the other hand, Severian's purpose in\nmany ways seems to be to discover the points where the Increate's Reality\nshines through the fabric of life on Urth, and the good traditions arise\nfrom these direct experiences of a higher order.\n\nThe textual similarity to the Buddhist texts is striking. I'm just\nwondering what Wolfe's aims were--maybe nothing more complicated than\nsuggesting that just as Communism can be seen as a secular parody of\nChristianity, it can be seen as a secular parody of elements of Buddhism\nas well.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }