Subject: (urth) Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?

From: DhSunanda <dhsunanda at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:34:52 +0000

> "And the Ascian, his voice no louder than my own had been, and
> perhaps even softer, answered, 'How shall the state be most
> vigorous? It shall be most vigorous when it is without conflict.
> How shall disagreement be banished? By banishing the four causes
> of disagreement: lies, foolish talk, boastful talk, and talk
> which serves only to incite quarrels. 

Hi, I'm new too, and the archive search doesn't seem to work for me, so I 
don't know if the Buddhist side of the Ascians has been discussed before. I 
know nothing about Zoroastrianism, but the Ascian's talk struck me on first 
reading as a parody of both Communist and Buddhist texts. Leaving aside the 
Communist....

'How can a state be vigorous?' is a question asked of the Buddha (via an 
intermediary) by King Ajatasattu about the Vajjians. (Ajatasattu wants to use 
the answer to subvert the Vajjian State, and thus wage a winning war). The 
Buddha lists 48 conditions that under which a state might be expected to 
prosper and not decline.

The four causes of disagreement are a direct translation, if slight 
rearrangement, of the traditional four speech precepts ('I undertake to 
abstain from false speech, harsh speech, useless speech, slanderous speech'). 
Traditional Buddhist precepts (guidelines for ethical action) are divided 
into those for the body (physical actions), those for the speech 
(communication acts) and those for the mind (wrong views about reality).

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:57:32 +0000

>(communication acts) and those for the mind (wrong views about reality).

So, then, is Wolfe parodying the Buddhist text, or the Ascian version
thereof?  After all, what Loyal-17 says most strongly suggests that the
problem is (A) the restrictions imposed on the Ascians are in fact enforcing
"real speech" to be translated through a medium that repeats lies (about
the wonderfulness of the Ascian way) and (B) it doesn't, in the end, 
prevent much from being said (the anti-Orwell/Whorfian subtext).

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Jim Henley <jlhenley at erols.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 13:59:43 +0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On
> Behalf Of DhSunanda at aol.com
> 

Wow. _That_ goes in the "News You Can Use" file. Thanks!

Best,

Jim
 *****************************************
"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart
  it's just the thought of someone sticking it in"
              -- Graham Parker, "Protection"

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From: DhSunanda <dhsunanda at aol.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:13:46 +0000

Hi Alex,

>  prevent much from being said (the anti-Orwell/Whorfian subtext).

Well, Wolfe quotes the Buddhist text pretty straight (if that is what he is 
doing; he's a tricky writer to pin down), but the Ascians are using the 
teaching to create a State of mindless conformity. That's the exact opposite 
of what Buddhism aims at.

In that sense it is a parody of the Buddhist text. Wolfe could be parodying 
the followers of religions in general, saying '"look at the effects of 
memorising texts rather than acting on their spirit").

Of course, as you point out reality can always break through cliche. That's 
true, but difficult. Doesn't Shadow somewhere near the beginning have a 
remark to the effect that concepts are much weaker than the words we use to 
bind them? (Sorry for not looking it up. My copy has unaccountably vanished).

The theme of innovation and experience versus tradition and ritual runs 
through all five Urth books.

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:19:44 +0000

>through all five Urth books.

I'm not sure what the reference is to--Severian's statement about symbols
(the "We believe we create symbols..."), perhaps?

At any rate, as usual Wolfe is not presenting a simple black/white
dichotomy between innovation and experience and "cliches".  Vodalus is,
in a real sense, the "innovator" as opposed to the Autarch.  But Vodalus'
"reach for the stars, reclaim the future" turns out to be a false coin,
at best a weak parody of Typhon's malignant grandness, used as a tool both
by the Autarch and by Erebus and Abaia.  The torturer's guild is another
prime example--the best of it is what remains of ancient traditions--the
feast of St. Catherine, etc.  On the other hand, Severian's purpose in
many ways seems to be to discover the points where the Increate's Reality
shines through the fabric of life on Urth, and the good traditions arise
from these direct experiences of a higher order.

The textual similarity to the Buddhist texts is striking.  I'm just
wondering what Wolfe's aims were--maybe nothing more complicated than
suggesting that just as Communism can be seen as a secular parody of
Christianity, it can be seen as a secular parody of elements of Buddhism
as well.