{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1778", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1778, "subject": "WATCHMEN (spoilers)", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-09-15T12:07:17+00:00", "last": "1999-09-17T08:47:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-09-15T12:07:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) WATCHMEN (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finally got around to reading Moore's WATCHMEN yesterday, and this morning\ngot an email from a friend 2/3 through CLAW asking if the House Absolute is\nthe \"Satan's castle.\"\n\nThis brought to mind a comparison I made last night. Veidt's plan, I think,\nmarks him as a diabolical monster, arrogant and \"evil\" (not in the comic book\nsense of a man who thinks of himself as evil and glories in it, but in the\nsense that one might call Mao or Hitler evil). The others who say \"well, it\nwasn't nice but it did the job\" seem similarly tarred. However, Severian's \nsimilar \"renewal of the Earth\" from (apparently) less immediately threatening \ncircumstances kills far more people but doesn't bother me morally. Severian\nis still very much a good guy, in my book.\n\nDoes anyone else who's read WATCHMEN agree with my assessment of Veidt, and\nif so, what precisely (I think I can say in general) make Severian's case so\ndifferent? (Or, since I know there are some on the list who see things\ndifferently, what makes Severian the same?)\n\nAlso, I'm assuming that between the TALES OF THE BLACK FREIGHTER and the \nOzymandias comparison, Moore at least strongly implies the same judgment,\nalthough I think it's (nicely) ambiguous.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-09-15T21:03:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) WATCHMEN (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Alex David Groce\n\nDoes anyone else who's read WATCHMEN agree with my assessment of\nVeidt, and\nif so, what precisely (I think I can say in general) make\nSeverian's case so\ndifferent? (Or, since I know there are some on the list who see things\ndifferently, what makes Severian the same?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I completely agree. Veidt's a rotter. The rest of them are indeed culpable\nfor going along with it.\n\nAs for what makes Severian different? Um, excellent question! And I'd tell\nyou but... it would spoil the satisfaction of working it out for yourself!\nYes, that's it!\n\nUm, actually, I can think of about three very equivocal things in\nSeverian's favor. I am not prepared to say they add up to a justification:\n\n1) Severian knows he's doing \"wrong\" in addition to doing good. \"Yes, he\n[Baldanders] is a bad man, as I am and you are.\" (From memory, please don't\nshoot me over variations.) Merits: Eh.\n\n2) If you buttonholed random Urth citizen number 43,256 and said, \"The New\nSun you wish for may come, but it will definitely mean your - and I mean\nyour - death,\" maybe most of them would say \"okay.\" Merits: Eh. Most of the\nsailors were against it, although we can suspect that many of them are from\ntimes before the Old Sun had cooled so much as it has in - given S's\nproblems with temporality, let's say Agila's - time. Also, should majority\nrule apply on this one anyway? I doubt it. Also, we could always ascribe\nany favorable responses to \"conditioning\" - been raised in that faith from\nbirth and all that.\n\n3) The Universe of the New Sun really works that way. That is to say, there\nreally is a God and it really is his plan. Merits: Good work if you can get\nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I'm assuming that between the TALES OF THE BLACK FREIGHTER and the\nOzymandias comparison, Moore at least strongly implies the same judgment,\nalthough I think it's (nicely) ambiguous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last page of Watchmen puts the line \"Nothing beside remains\" into my\nhead. It seems unlikely that Veidt's scheme will last because his deception\nseems perishable. In some ways this dodges the harder question which is,\n\"Well, what if he _could_ have perfectly deceived everyone?\" For me the\nanswer is easy - he's still a bastard. But that won't be true for everyone.\n\nNote: The foregoing bloviation on matters of ethical opinion was loosed\nsolely because precisely that was requested. \n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"These are the days of empty kitchens\"\n -- Sheryl Crow" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-09-17T08:47:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) WATCHMEN (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few more tidbits about Watchmen/Severian (plenty o' spoilers)\n\nIt's been pointed out in newsgroup discussions, that Veidt's plan is\nparticularly suspect because he gets his information about the world\nby...watching television! Perhaps Moore is saying, yeah this daft plan\ncould work if the real world was the world you see on TV.\n\nVeidt has been accused of sadism, from the murder of the Commedian and his\nsecretary to coming up with a plan to \"save the world\" that requires\nkilling so many people. If he were genuinely interested in saving the\nworld, you'd think he'd have put his energy into getting Dr. Manhattan to\nstep in and fix things, rather than driving him off. \n\nFor that matter, his efforts to hide from Manhattan show his\nmisunderstanding of how Jon sees the future. Jon doesn't look into the\nfuture in order to change it. \n\nDoes Severian even know what bringing the New Sun will do to the Urth\nbefore he does it? Somehow I thought he was suprised by all the\ndestruction it caused. If so, he seems not at all comparable to Veidt. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }