{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1779",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1779,
    "subject": "Severian vs. Ozymandias",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1999-09-15T14:12:11+00:00",
    "last": "1999-09-15T14:12:11+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0112@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dan Parmenter",
        "address": "dan at lec.com"
      },
      "date": "1999-09-15T14:12:11+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Severian vs. Ozymandias",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>\nThis brought to mind a comparison I made last night.  Veidt's plan, I think,\nmarks him as a diabolical monster, arrogant and \"evil\" (not in the comic book\nsense of a man who thinks of himself as evil and glories in it, but in the\nsense that one might call Mao or Hitler evil).  The others who say \"well, it\nwasn't nice but it did the job\" seem similarly tarred.  However, Severian's \nsimilar \"renewal of the Earth\" from (apparently) less immediately threatening \ncircumstances kills far more people but doesn't bother me morally.  Severian\nis still very much a good guy, in my book."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think it's the difference between \"achieving greatness\" vs. \"having\ngreatness thrust upon one.\"  Severian is more the latter and\nOzymandias attempts the former.  I tend to go with the idea of\nSeverian as a \"good guy\" too, or a \"bad man attempting to do good,\" as\nhe describes himself, which I suppose sounds more overtly Christian."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Does anyone else who's read WATCHMEN agree with my assessment of Veidt, and\nif so, what precisely (I think I can say in general) make Severian's case so\ndifferent?  (Or, since I know there are some on the list who see things\ndifferently, what makes Severian the same?)\nAlso, I'm assuming that between the TALES OF THE BLACK FREIGHTER and the \nOzymandias comparison, Moore at least strongly implies the same judgment,\nalthough I think it's (nicely) ambiguous."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I would tend to assume that given the name and the evoking of the\nsame-named poem, we are meant to think that Veidt was ultimately\nunsuccessful, or at least that his achievements are ultimately\nmeaningless.  And remember, the former Night Owl and Silk Specter\nimmediately take up their old superhero \"jobs\" with spiffy new secret\nidentities, which suggests that there's still work to be done.  So\nOzymandias is more like Typhon, who I've always assumed was meant to\nevoke the Ozymandias of the poem at some level (and Satan too, but\nWolfe's symbols and evocations are allowed to function in multiple\nways).  There is no redeemer in Watchmen.  Probably one of the few\nblameless characters, the original Night Owl, is brutally killed.\nDr. Manhattan is too detached to care.\n\nI've long championed the Wolfe/Moore comparison for a variety of\nreasons.  If Wolfe's read him, he hasn't mentioned it in any\ninterviews I've read, though he has a lot of good things to say about\nNeil Gaiman, who I still consider something of a lightweight Moore\nwannabe.\n\nLex Shellac"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}