{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1821", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1821, "subject": "Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-10-06T07:57:20+00:00", "last": "1999-10-08T12:49:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig.Christensen", "address": "craig.christensen at lawson.com" }, "date": "1999-10-06T07:57:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has it been established here that Christianity played no part in Urth's past?\nOr that it did, but so long ago that it has been forgotten? Would Dorcas'\nmemory of the rood be evidence that it did? Does 'rood' have other meanings\nthan crucifix?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-10-06T09:15:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Christensen wrote:\nHas it been established here that Christianity played no part in Urth's past?\nOr that it did, but so long ago that it has been forgotten? Would Dorcas'\nmemory of the rood be evidence that it did? Does 'rood' have other meanings\nthan crucifix?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been established that Dorcas's family made enamelled crucifixes.\nLikewise, that the pelerines are a band of Red Cross women (battlefield\nhealers), and they use a cross form on their letters (the \"narthex sigil of\nthe order\").\n\n(Greg Feeley used these points to extrapolate that the pelerines bought\ntheir crucifixes from the family of Dorcas whenever they were in Nessus;\nthis family connection/association then facilitates the meeting between\nCatherine and Ouen.)\n\nSo yes: a form of Christianity played a part in Urth's past, in the\nteaching and church of the Conciliator (at the very least); and was so long\nago that it has been all but forgotten.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-06T13:53:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nSo yes: a form of Christianity played a part in Urth's past, in the\nteaching and church of the Conciliator (at the very least); and was so long\nago that it has been all but forgotten." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know we've been through this some before, but I was curious in what\nsense you think Christianity played a part in \"the teaching and church of\nthe Conciliator.\" \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-10-06T13:52:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So yes: a form of Christianity played a part in Urth's past, in the\nteaching and church of the Conciliator (at the very least); and was so long\nago that it has been all but forgotten." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know we've been through this some before, but I was curious in what\nsense you think Christianity played a part in \"the teaching and church of\nthe Conciliator.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Where's Jim Jordan =now=?!) \n\nWhile I'm not about to produce an essay on the spot, I might be able to\nanswer the question if it were a tad more specific.\n\nOr, better: If you have something to say, go ahead and say it!\n\nWe are on the same page, I hope: Canog's THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.\n\nA few details chosen at apparent random: Holy Katharine, St. Amand,\nNilamon, Ctesiphon's Cross. It seems to me that there are only three ways\nfor these to appear in the text: either the roots of the Commonwealth's\nculture go so deep as to remember Christianity (in the same way that the\nApollo Mission photo is retained in the picture gallery); or, the Church of\nthe Conciliator has recapitulated Christianity (mainly a Greek Orthodox\nform) in a sort of parallel evolution (so the Commonwealth's Katharine\nisn't Earth's Katharine, she just looks like a twin); or it is all just a\ntranslating error on the part of Gene Wolfe.\n\nFWIW, I doubt that this approaches the answer you want to read, and as we\nhave gone over this ground before, I have the sense of repeating myself\nrepeating, still: I have a sense that Severian's Narrative is a\npagano-Christian text, in that it approaches Christianity by way of pagan\nelements and traditions. It recapitulates Christianity along the way (just\nas an obscure Jewish sect was transformed by some Greeks and then some\nRomans). This is somewhat similar to Dante's Comedy, but also somewhat\nopposite: Dante gathered the suppressed pagan elements into a well\nestablished Christianity; Severian approaches the nebulous Christian\nthrough the established Pagan.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-08T12:49:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Evidence of Christianity in Urth's past?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nA few details chosen at apparent random: Holy Katharine, St. Amand,\nNilamon, Ctesiphon's Cross. It seems to me that there are only three ways\nfor these to appear in the text: either the roots of the Commonwealth's\nculture go so deep as to remember Christianity (in the same way that the\nApollo Mission photo is retained in the picture gallery); or, the Church of\nthe Conciliator has recapitulated Christianity (mainly a Greek Orthodox\nform) in a sort of parallel evolution (so the Commonwealth's Katharine\nisn't Earth's Katharine, she just looks like a twin); or it is all just a\ntranslating error on the part of Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That last bit gets at the possibility I was wondering about. No one\nreading Tolkien thinks that Aragorn is Christ-like because there was\nChristianity in Middle Earth's past. The resemblances are attributed to\nTolkien himself. Is it possible that the religious stuff in the New Sun\nlooks like Christianity for the same reason the spaceships look like\nsailboats: because Wolfe likes Christianity and sailing?\n\nI think one reason I ask is that I'm trying to puzzle out whether\nSeverian's story is meant to be separate from the story of Christianity,\nto be related in the mind of the reader, or whether Wolfe intends the\nChristian story to be part of Severian's story (or vice versa).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }