{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1831",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1831,
    "subject": "Floating Islands: The Lake and Its Peoples",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1999-10-09T15:26:08+00:00",
    "last": "1999-10-09T15:26:08+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0194@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey",
        "address": "mab at lindau.net"
      },
      "date": "1999-10-09T15:26:08+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Floating Islands: The Lake and Its Peoples",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Greene, Carlton wrote:\n\nJust wanted to cast my votes for those who argue that the backdrop for the\nevents in TBOTNS is a much transformed So. Am.\n\nIn addition to Severian's description of the autochthons, the town of\nApu-Punchau, pampas, jungles at the waist of the world, blood bats, mate\n(so. am. tea -- very good), and countless other references, ..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "This seems to illustrate a principle of culture I vaguely recall from\nschool: the history and traditions of a ruling class, often arising and\nbeing deposed cyclically, tend to pass into legend and even be forgotten\n(like present day Earth, and much of the future history of the stellar\nempires and empire of the Monarch will be forgotten by the\nCommonwealth). In contrast, what is condescendingly called the \"low\nculture\", the way the common people live their lives, on the other hand\nmay persist vitually unchanged for chiliads- er- millenia. The continued\nexistence of mate and handwoven alpaca wool and bola-type weapons and\nyes floating reed islands in a future so distant Chile and Argentina and\nPeru are long forgotten is not unrealistic."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "...I note that lake\nDiuturna bears a strong resemblence to Lake Titicaca at the border between\nPeru and Bolivia.  In SOTL the lake is described as an enormous freshwater\nbody at an elevation significantly above sea level.  Lake Titicaca fits this\ndescription.  But the real clincher is the existence of floating islands\nmade by binding river rushes together to form platforms... The Aymara indians\nof the lake Titicaca area make such rafts, and  a small few still live on\nsuch islands to this day.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "My imression is that the Titicaca lake dwellers are called Uros,\nalthough it is said the original authentic Uros are extinct and the\npresent-day \"Uros\" came from Aymaru and possibly Quechua migrants who\ntook up the lifestyle. You may have better info on that than I do,\nthough. The governments of Peru and Bolivia supposedly once tried to\npersuade them to leave, but now encourages them to stay and lead their\ntourist-attracting lifestyle. Some of the largest floating islands could\nsupport enough soil for tiny kitchen garden plots, which I think Wolfe's\nisland people were said to do."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "They also make and use reed boats of the type Severian describes in the Hetman's \nvillage.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "This is where the designs for some of Thor Heyerdahl's \"living\narcheaology\" ocean-crossing experiments came from. The Andean design\nheld together in the ocean much better than the Egyptian design, if I\nrecall correctly. Not very resistant to metallic sodium-water\nexplosions, though!"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Another note: I believe, though\nits been a while, that the Aymara in the Titicaca area have a long running\nrivalry with the land based Quechua that inhabit the shore regions around\nthe lake, ...\nThus, I believe Wolfe's depiction of the rivalry between the\nlake people and the shore people is based on this real, historical rivalry\nbetween Quechua and Aymara."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "The Inca were in wars of conquest with everybody in sight after they\nstarted their rise to empire around 1200. The greatest asset the Bros\nPizzaro enjoyed in their conquests was the fact that many tribes such as\nthe Canari held grudges against their Inca overlords and were often\nhappy to ally themselves with the Spaniards.\n\nI may be incorrect, but I had the impression most of Titicaca's shore\npeople were Aymaru. A Quechua-speaking people occupy one largish island\nin the lake. The male weavers are famous for their textiles. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "...the same Quechua who inhabit Peru's Cuzco -- ancient home to Inti,\nthe head of day.  These same Quechua appear to be the model for Wolfe's\nautochthons.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I was interested to find that although Cuzco was the location from which\nthe Inca nation established an empire, the tradition of the Quechua\npeoples say that they originated from Lake Titicaca, specifically the\nIsle of the Sun (there is an island of the moon, also). The avatar or\nincarnation of the sun god Inti and his consort came forth from this\nisland, such island said to have been formed from the corpse(?) of a\n(divine?) puma or mountain lion, as the first Inca to found the original\nQuechua nation. \n\nArcheaologically there had been a series of earlier civilizations in the\narea since around 1500BC, most notably the Tiahuanco people of the\nAltiplano who left all those enigmatic ruins, from whom the later Inca\ninherited much of their tradition and material culture. Tiahuanco in\nparticular, and the lake, were considered sacred by the imperial Inca\nand by the Quechua and Aymara peoples to this day.\n\nThe lake is also said to be mostly shallow. During a recent drought many\nUro floating islands ran aground on mudbars, becoming what some tourists\ndescribed as huts on piles of reed mats scattered on little muddy\nknolls.\n\nI tried, but so far failed, to find an unambiguous translation of the\nword \"Titicaca\". (other than from Beavis and Butthead <g> heheheheh) The\nbest I could come up with was that \"titi\" is possibly Aymara for \"puma\".\nI guess that could be a reference to the aforementioned Quechua\ntradition. Unless there is a really obscure cultural linkage (the Great\nCat of Longevity?), it would not appear the name \"Diuturna\"\n(\"long-lasting\", per LexUrth) has anything in common with \"Titicaca\"."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "One final note:  Cuzco (which I believe is the stone town of Apu Punchau)\nlies to the north of Lake Titicaca.  ..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "So there are a number of ways we could try to reinterpret this\nsituation:\n\n1. Perhaps Severian/Apu_Punchao's town actually _was_ south of the lake,\nbeing the place from which the Quechua trace their origins in legends,\nrather than Cuzco. Severian/Apu-Punchao could be remembered in the story\nof Inti's emergence. It is tempting to try to connect this avatar of\nSeverian to perhaps the mysterious Weeping God of Tiahuanco rather than\nthe Inca of Cuzco. The stone town of _Claw_ seems to have been well\nsouth of Thrax as well, and not near or among any true mountains, which\nmakes Cuzco problematic but the Altiplano south of Titicaca at least\npossible. Being close to the pampas, though, I keep thinking the stone\ntown should be eastward and lower in altitude. A description of La Paz,\nBolivia, located in a canyon BTW kind of reminded me of Thrax although\nthere doesn't seem to be a river comparable to Acies running through it.\n\n2. Lakes, particularly shallow ones, are not long-lived geographic\nfeatures as a rule. They tend to either fill in with silt, develop an\noutlet large enough to drain them, or dry out over mere tens of\nchiliads. Perhaps Diuturna actually will lie well north of present\nTiticaca, to be formed similarly in a shallow basin in a high plateau,\nmaybe in northern Peru near Ecuador? Bear in mind the drastic unnatural\ngeologic upheavals between now and the time of the Commonwealth implied\nby BNS. The culture of eventually-vanished Titicaca can be expected to\nmigrate to Diuturna in the interval."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}