Subject: (urth) Aw Hell (Giants)

From: Jim Henley <jlhenley at erols.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:29:38 +0000

I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last night with my Amber (RPG)
group and offered the oh-so-clever observation that one could get around it
by living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did. But one of my pals said
the real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - you pass a point where the
surface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb enough oxygen for all the
cells in your enlarged body.

Well darn! But I wonder; we didn't get into the math - I mean, Bill's from
art school - but can anyone put a number on the size where lung limitations
come into play?

I can't help remembering the old Ben Bova science columns that ran in Boy's
Life back in my scouting days. (This was more than, oh, ten years ago. And
I do mean "more.") One month, by way of teaching the SCL, he set out to
design a giant crab. By the end of the article, after all the compromises
and efficiencies were accounted for, the "giant crab" turned out to be -
Tyrannosaurous Rex!

Best,

Jim
 *****************************************
 "Took my pistol and a hundred dollar bill
  I had everything I needed to get me killed"
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*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Fr.Inire <inire at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:58:00 +0000

> cells in your enlarged body.

   aw, tell him to bugger off and go appreciate some
existencial<sp> impressionism...;-> Actually, doesn't
that naively assume that the lung capacity isn't also
increased by the evolution of greater numbers of
alevoli <sp> sucking up O2? That would seem to follow
if the rest of the body has evolved such that water as
the only means of support...

=====
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From: Ron Hale-Evans <rwhe at apocalypse.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:01:08 +0000

>and efficiencies were accounted for, the "giant crab" turned out to be -

Omigoodness.

Whenever I hear anyone mention the square-cube law, this very article leaps
instantly into my mind. I had no idea it was by Ben Bova (what did I know
from Bovas at that age?). And I have always recalled it as an insect he was
scaling up.

But no matter. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, brave...

Thanks for confirming this memory.

Ron H-E
--
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From: Jon Camfield <griffjon at austin.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:49:30 +0000

>alevoli <sp> sucking up O2?

The problem is that the ability to get oxygen from the air (or the water,
for that matter) is based on amount surface, so it scales much slower than
volume (volume scales in cubes, surface area in squares).

OTOH, we have seen giants such as the sperm whale and the brontosaurus rex
alive and well on earth--so the undines are certainly within reach
size-wize (I'd give them T. Rex-level proportions from what I
remember--anyone have better estimates?).

And, who said Abaia breathes, in the first place?

Also, as Ron pointed out, it may be entirely possible that some other
method has evolved--smaller alevoli (diminishing returns as the space
between cells approaches the size of O2), bigger, more expansive
lungs/gills, etc. etc. etc.
______________________________________________________
Jon "GriffJon" Camfield                    www.GriffJon.com
Web R&D, Competitive Intelligence; eCertain.com

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, construct a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
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manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
--Robert A. Heinlein, _The Notebooks of Lazarus Long_