{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1836", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1836, "subject": "Digest urth.v028.n055", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-10-17T11:18:38+00:00", "last": "1999-10-18T00:20:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at phyast.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-17T11:18:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n055", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jim Henley\" \nSubject: Aw Hell (Giants)\nDate: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:29:38 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last night with my Amber (RPG)\ngroup and offered the oh-so-clever observation that one could get around it\nby living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did. But one of my pals said\nthe real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - you pass a point where the\nsurface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb enough oxygen for all the\ncells in your enlarged body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well darn! But I wonder; we didn't get into the math - I mean, Bill's from\nart school - but can anyone put a number on the size where lung limitations\ncome into play?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " One data point would be the size of whales. They don't seem to be\nworking on the evolutionary edge of lung capacity, since they can stay\nsubmerged for long periods of time. (That is, they seem to have enough\nO2 marginal capacity to be able to hold their breath for long periods.)\nIf they were too close to the break point of the square cube law, I don't\nthink that would be easy for them.\n\n Our lungs are a fairly small fraction of our volume. Anyone know \nwhat fraction of a whale's volume their lungs are? Or an elephants?\nIf we have these few data points, I can fit the power law for you.\n(I am pretty sure that the scale isn't linear. Our legs, for example,\nare proportionally thicker than an insects, as dictated by the SC law.)\n\n Kieran Mullen\n\n\n Kieran Mullen email: kieran at ou.edu\n Dept. of Physics and Astronomy phone: (405) 325-3961\n The University of Oklahoma FAX: (405) 325-7557\n Norman, OK 73019, USA http://www.nhn.ou.edu/~kieran/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Taylor", "address": "steve at afs.net.au" }, "date": "1999-10-18T00:20:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n055", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Omigoodness.\n\nWhenever I hear anyone mention the square-cube law, this very article leaps\ninstantly into my mind. I had no idea it was by Ben Bova (what did I know\nfrom Bovas at that age?). And I have always recalled it as an insect he was\nscaling up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember the same column, but I remember it as being by Willy Ley.\nWhich is not to say the same column didn't get written a number of times\n- after all, the job of creating giant insects is too important to leave\nto just one person. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But no matter. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, brave..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahh... I was only ever a Cub. I never graduated to the big time.\n\n\n\n Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "shannon wilde", "address": "swilde_99 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-10-18T00:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n055", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- urth-errors at lists.best.com wrote:\n\n-------------- BEGIN urth.v028.n055 --------------\n\n 001 - \"Jim Henley\" \nSubject: Aw Hell (Giants)\nDate: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:29:38 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\n\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nI was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last\nnight with my Amber (RPG)\ngroup and offered the oh-so-clever observation that\none could get around it\nby living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did.\nBut one of my pals said\nthe real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - you\npass a point where the\nsurface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb\nenough oxygen for all the\ncells in your enlarged body.\n\nWell darn! But I wonder; we didn't get into the math\n- I mean, Bill's from\nart school - but can anyone put a number on the size\nwhere lung limitations\ncome into play?\n\nI can't help remembering the old Ben Bova science\ncolumns that ran in Boy's\nLife back in my scouting days. (This was more than,\noh, ten years ago. And\nI do mean \"more.\") One month, by way of teaching the\nSCL, he set out to\ndesign a giant crab. By the end of the article,\nafter all the compromises\nand efficiencies were accounted for, the \"giant\ncrab\" turned out to be -\nTyrannosaurous Rex!\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n \"Took my pistol and a hundred dollar bill\n I had everything I needed to get me killed\"\n -- Steve Earle\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n055.2\n---------------\n\nFrom: \"Fr.Inire\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Aw Hell (Giants)\nDate: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:58:00 -0700 (PDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\n\n--- Jim Henley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last\nnight with my Amber (RPG)\ngroup and offered the oh-so-clever observation\nthat\none could get around it\nby living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did.\nBut one of my pals said\nthe real problem with the SCL is in the lungs -\nyou\npass a point where the\nsurface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb\nenough oxygen for all the\ncells in your enlarged body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " aw, tell him to bugger off and go appreciate some\nexistencial impressionism...;-> Actually,\ndoesn't\nthat naively assume that the lung capacity isn't\nalso\nincreased by the evolution of greater numbers of\nalevoli sucking up O2? That would seem to\nfollow\nif the rest of the body has evolved such that water\nas\nthe only means of support...\n\n\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller\n\nThe HeavyGear Parts SwapMeet is at" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/swap.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heavy Gear: Not your Dad's walking robot\ngame...www.dp9.com\n\n\nGaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82\nGS650G\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nBid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n055.3\n---------------\n\nFrom: Ron Hale-Evans \nSubject: Re: (urth) Aw Hell (Giants)\nDate: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:01:08 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nReferences: <199910160324.UAA02815 at lists1.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <199910160324.UAA02815 at lists1.best.com>\n\nJim Henley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't help remembering the old Ben Bova science\ncolumns that ran in Boy's\nLife back in my scouting days. (This was more than,\noh, ten years ago. And\nI do mean \"more.\") One month, by way of teaching\nthe SCL, he set out to\ndesign a giant crab. By the end of the article,\nafter all the compromises\nand efficiencies were accounted for, the \"giant\ncrab\" turned out to be -\nTyrannosaurous Rex!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Omigoodness.\n\nWhenever I hear anyone mention the square-cube law,\nthis very article leaps\ninstantly into my mind. I had no idea it was by Ben\nBova (what did I know\nfrom Bovas at that age?). And I have always recalled\nit as an insect he was\nscaling up.\n\nBut no matter. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal,\nbrave...\n\nThanks for confirming this memory.\n\nRon H-E\n--\nRon Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ...\n\nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \n\nKennexions GBG artgame: \n\nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List:\n\nPositive Revolution FAQ: \n\n\n\n--------------- END urth.v028.n055 ---------------\nFWIW, remember Ox absorbtion can be pretty complex," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and easy (relatively) to screw with genetically, yes?\nI mean we're talking about low temps, possible biochem\nenhancements/adaptations (re:seals, whales, etc. down\nthe evo tree as far as we +wolfe care to, and yeah,\nit's being tried now...So, this is science fiction,\nindeedy. Why not figure thar was tried first and then\nall the other nutbar adaptations and abilities come\nmillenia down the pipe? Oh, yes, I too as a nontheist\nam curious about the \"conversion process.\" So bring it\non, hegemony loyalists! Go alga, it's your\nbirthday...crimony, it's past me bedtime. Tater on,\nShannon (Aoi, maybe, open to not-overly-nasty\nsuggestion, or maybe Lemongrass. Is this still hip?\nYou all say,k? ;) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the New Sun and other works" } ] } ] }