# Digest urth.v028.n055 *The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 17 Oct 1999* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Kieran Mullen *17 Oct 1999, 11:18* > From: "Jim Henley" > Subject: Aw Hell (Giants) > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:29:38 -0400 > I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last night with my Amber (RPG) > group and offered the oh-so-clever observation that one could get around it > by living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did. But one of my pals said > the real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - you pass a point where the > surface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb enough oxygen for all the > cells in your enlarged body. > Well darn! But I wonder; we didn't get into the math - I mean, Bill's from > art school - but can anyone put a number on the size where lung limitations > come into play? One data point would be the size of whales. They don't seem to be working on the evolutionary edge of lung capacity, since they can stay submerged for long periods of time. (That is, they seem to have enough O2 marginal capacity to be able to hold their breath for long periods.) If they were too close to the break point of the square cube law, I don't think that would be easy for them. Our lungs are a fairly small fraction of our volume. Anyone know what fraction of a whale's volume their lungs are? Or an elephants? If we have these few data points, I can fit the power law for you. (I am pretty sure that the scale isn't linear. Our legs, for example, are proportionally thicker than an insects, as dictated by the SC law.) Kieran Mullen Kieran Mullen email: kieran at ou.edu Dept. of Physics and Astronomy phone: (405) 325-3961 The University of Oklahoma FAX: (405) 325-7557 Norman, OK 73019, USA http://www.nhn.ou.edu/~kieran/ --- ### Steve Taylor *18 Oct 1999, 00:20 · follows Kieran Mullen* > Omigoodness. > > Whenever I hear anyone mention the square-cube law, this very article leaps > instantly into my mind. I had no idea it was by Ben Bova (what did I know > from Bovas at that age?). And I have always recalled it as an insect he was > scaling up. I remember the same column, but I remember it as being by Willy Ley. Which is not to say the same column didn't get written a number of times - after all, the job of creating giant insects is too important to leave to just one person. > But no matter. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, brave... Ahh... I was only ever a Cub. I never graduated to the big time. Steve --- ### shannon wilde *18 Oct 1999, 00:10 · follows Steve Taylor* > --- urth-errors at lists.best.com wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v028.n055 -------------- > > 001 - "Jim Henley" (Giants) > 002 - "Fr.Inire" Hell (Giants) > 003 - Ron Hale-Evans Hell (Giants) > > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New > Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n055.1 > --------------- > > From: "Jim Henley" > Subject: Aw Hell (Giants) > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:29:38 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last > night with my Amber (RPG) > group and offered the oh-so-clever observation that > one could get around it > by living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did. > But one of my pals said > the real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - you > pass a point where the > surface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb > enough oxygen for all the > cells in your enlarged body. > > Well darn! But I wonder; we didn't get into the math > - I mean, Bill's from > art school - but can anyone put a number on the size > where lung limitations > come into play? > > I can't help remembering the old Ben Bova science > columns that ran in Boy's > Life back in my scouting days. (This was more than, > oh, ten years ago. And > I do mean "more.") One month, by way of teaching the > SCL, he set out to > design a giant crab. By the end of the article, > after all the compromises > and efficiencies were accounted for, the "giant > crab" turned out to be - > Tyrannosaurous Rex! > > Best, > > > Jim > ***************************************** > "Took my pistol and a hundred dollar bill > I had everything I needed to get me killed" > -- Steve Earle > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n055.2 > --------------- > > From: "Fr.Inire" > Subject: Re: (urth) Aw Hell (Giants) > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:58:00 -0700 (PDT) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > --- Jim Henley wrote: >> I was talking giants and the Square-Cube Law last >> night with my Amber (RPG) >> group and offered the oh-so-clever observation >> that >> one could get around it >> by living, giant-sized in the water, oh yes I did. >> But one of my pals said >> the real problem with the SCL is in the lungs - >> you >> pass a point where the >> surface area of your enlarged lungs can't absorb >> enough oxygen for all the >> cells in your enlarged body. > aw, tell him to bugger off and go appreciate some > existencial impressionism...;-> Actually, > doesn't > that naively assume that the lung capacity isn't > also > increased by the evolution of greater numbers of > alevoli sucking up O2? That would seem to > follow > if the rest of the body has evolved such that water > as > the only means of support... > > > > ===== > Jeff "My dice hate me!" Miller > > The HeavyGear Parts SwapMeet is at http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/swap.html > Heavy Gear: Not your Dad's walking robot > game...www.dp9.com > > > Gaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82 > GS650G > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n055.3 > --------------- > > From: Ron Hale-Evans > Subject: Re: (urth) Aw Hell (Giants) > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:01:08 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > References: <199910160324.UAA02815 at lists1.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <199910160324.UAA02815 at lists1.best.com> > > Jim Henley wrote: >> I can't help remembering the old Ben Bova science >> columns that ran in Boy's >> Life back in my scouting days. (This was more than, >> oh, ten years ago. And >> I do mean "more.") One month, by way of teaching >> the SCL, he set out to >> design a giant crab. By the end of the article, >> after all the compromises >> and efficiencies were accounted for, the "giant >> crab" turned out to be - >> Tyrannosaurous Rex! > Omigoodness. > > Whenever I hear anyone mention the square-cube law, > this very article leaps > instantly into my mind. I had no idea it was by Ben > Bova (what did I know > from Bovas at that age?). And I have always recalled > it as an insect he was > scaling up. > > But no matter. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, > brave... > > Thanks for confirming this memory. > > Ron H-E > -- > Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... > > Center for Ludic Synergy: > > Kennexions GBG artgame: > > Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: > > Positive Revolution FAQ: > > > > --------------- END urth.v028.n055 --------------- > FWIW, remember Ox absorbtion can be pretty complex, and easy (relatively) to screw with genetically, yes? I mean we're talking about low temps, possible biochem enhancements/adaptations (re:seals, whales, etc. down the evo tree as far as we +wolfe care to, and yeah, it's being tried now...So, this is science fiction, indeedy. Why not figure thar was tried first and then all the other nutbar adaptations and abilities come millenia down the pipe? Oh, yes, I too as a nontheist am curious about the "conversion process." So bring it on, hegemony loyalists! Go alga, it's your birthday...crimony, it's past me bedtime. Tater on, Shannon (Aoi, maybe, open to not-overly-nasty suggestion, or maybe Lemongrass. Is this still hip? You all say,k? ;) > the New Sun and other works ---