{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1842", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1842, "subject": "The Conation of Catodon; Severian's skull (long)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-10-21T20:38:16+00:00", "last": "1999-10-21T23:24:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greene, Carlton", "address": "cgreene2 at hunton.com" }, "date": "1999-10-21T20:38:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Conation of Catodon; Severian's skull (long)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In TUoTNS (at 306 Tor Hardback), Juturna the undine explains to Severian\nthat Abaia's a good guy whose been trying to help out the people of Urth all\nalong. When Valeria asks \"When has Abaia sought our good?\", Juturna replies\n...\n\n\"He might have destroyed you ... He's tried to tame you instead. Catch\nCatodon ... cast out his conation. What good? Abaia would make of us a\ngreat people.\"\n\nWebster's defines \"conation\" as an attempt or, alternatively, as\ninclination, instinct, drive, wish, or craving.\n\nSo who is Catodon and what exactly was he attempting or driven to do? By\nsaying \"cast out,\" Juturna suggests that Catodon has already performed some\nspecific acts as part of his attempt that must be undone.\n\nIt is interesting also that Juturna says Abaia would make of \"us\" a great\npeople. Are humans and the brides of Abaia born of the same stock? The\nexistence of Idas certainly suggests this is so. Also, Baldander's growth\nand eventual migration to the sea suggest a link between humankind and\nbeings like Juturna. I have also speculated earlier that some of Typhon's\nfamily (Scylla, e.g.) may have remained on Earth, growing monstrous in a\ngambit to achieve immortality a la Baldanders (I do not know if this has\nbeen suggested before). \n\nOne other interesting tidbit. Many people on this list have discussed the\nvarious \"alternate Severians\" -- the branchings that substantiate in part\nSeverian's claim that he is \"rooted in eternity.\" In this regard, I was\nfascinated by the skull Sev finds at the bottom of the Gyoll after the\nFlood. (see p. 333) Sev speculates that it is the skull of a boy apprentice\nwho died many years ago (the skull is yellowed with age), and that the boy\ndied for Severian so that he might cheat Gyoll of his own death (i.e. his\ndeath by drowning in Book 1). Sev. places the skull at the gate of his\nmausoleum in the (submerged) Necropolis. \n\nGiven other events in TBoTNS (Sev's death in Sidero, e.g.), this leads me to\nbelieve that Sev has found his own skull, and that he did in fact drown that\nday in Gyoll when he swam among the nenuphars as a boy, resurrected and\n\"copied\" as he was in the Sidero/Apu Punchau events. \n\nOne last, odd wrinkle: Sev's conversation with Juturna in the audience\nchamber of the House Absolute. Sev says of Juturna: \"She saved me once when\nI was a boy\" and then to her \"Do you remember that?\" Juturna replies \"No.\nIt hasn't yet occurred. It will, because you spoke.\" \n\nWhat does this say about Juturna's actions throughout the novels? We now\nhave reason to think that they were motivated in part by her encounter with\nSev before the Flood. Why does she help him knowing the New Sun will come\n(and Abaia be destroyed) if she does? And earlier, what help does she think\nshe can bring to humans about to be drowned in the HA? (see 305-06). Why\nisn't Juturna concerned about Abaia's demise both just before and after the\nflood? Was she somehow bound to go back and save Sev because of his words\nabout it, but still hoped to manipulate him in Abaia's favor in the past?\n\nJust a few thoughts. My apologies if \"Sev's skull\" has been dealt with\nbefore." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-21T23:24:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Conation of Catodon; Severian's skull (long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Greene, Carlton\n\nWhy\nisn't Juturna concerned about Abaia's demise both just before\nand after the\nflood? Was she somehow bound to go back and save Sev because of\nhis words\nabout it, but still hoped to manipulate him in Abaia's favor in the past?\n\nJust a few thoughts. My apologies if \"Sev's skull\" has been dealt with\nbefore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, here's another one: why would massive flooding kill a bunch of giants\nwho _live in the water_? The only thing I figure is that if you're a giant\nwho lives in the water and get caught above a sea bottom that decides it\nwants to be a continent now, you've got problems.\n\nSomething else?\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\nWhat if we only get what we deserve?\n Somehow, I couldn't quite summon the nerve\"\n -- Costello/Bacharach" } ] } ] }