{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1844",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1844,
    "subject": "What is a \"satisfactory\" narrator?",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1999-10-24T21:23:32+00:00",
    "last": "1999-10-25T12:56:47+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0219@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Daniel Fusch",
        "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com"
      },
      "date": "1999-10-24T21:23:32+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) What is a \"satisfactory\" narrator?",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "William Ansley:\n\nsnip:\n\"Whether Severian is a reliable narrator or not, he is certainly an\nunsatisfactory one by any of the usual standards of story telling.\"\n\nBut what ARE the \"usual standards\" of storytelling? What does it take for a \nnarrator to be \"satisfactory\"? Literature is full of unreliable and \ninconsistent narrators who leave most of the work to the reader.\n\nIs Ishmael, the completely enigmatic and often inconsistent narrator of \n\"Moby Dick\" -- satisfactory?\n\nWhat about the poet who narrates \"Paradise Lost\" -- wherein the reader is \nexpected to weed through the arguments and speeches in order to fill in \nwhat's missing, what's wrong, and what is intentionally deceiving?\n\nWhat about the narrator(s) of \"The Sound and the Fury\" -- in which the \nreader supplies nearly ALL the details of the plot based on subtle clues?\n\nHow do we define a satisfactory narrator? For that matter, does the plot \nneed to be linear and explained in order to qualify as good storytelling? \n(Of course, some people don't like the epics, and some people don't like \nmodernism....)\n\nHere's my point--or rather my question--isn't Gene Wolfe, through Severian, \nasking us to examine the way we perceive storytelling? Consider that \nstorytelling is thousands of years old, and has passed through many \nforms--at one time it was an oral form in which the audience was invited to \nparticipate.\n\nConsider the modern Japanese--I don't know about their stories, but in their \nnonfiction, they consider it an insult to the reader if they outright state \nthe conclusion for the reader. The reader is expected to put the pieces \ntogether and draw the conclusion.\n\nSeverian's fictional audience may not expect the same manner of storytelling \nthat we expect. \"The Book of the New Sun\" should really be treated--for all \nintents and purposes--as a work translated from another culture. That, after \nall, is the effect that Wolfe is trying to achieve.\n\nMy 2 cents,\nDaniel"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0221@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Straight",
        "address": "straight at email.unc.edu"
      },
      "date": "1999-10-25T12:56:47+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) What is a \"satisfactory\" narrator?",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0028-0219@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Daniel Fusch wrote:\n\"Whether Severian is a reliable narrator or not, he is certainly an\nunsatisfactory one by any of the usual standards of story telling.\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "[...]"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Here's my point--or rather my question--isn't Gene Wolfe, through\nSeverian, asking us to examine the way we perceive storytelling?\nConsider that storytelling is thousands of years old, and has passed\nthrough many forms--at one time it was an oral form in which the\naudience was invited to participate. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "[...]"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Severian's fictional audience may not expect the same manner of\nstorytelling that we expect. \"The Book of the New Sun\" should really be\ntreated--for all intents and purposes--as a work translated from another\nculture. That, after all, is the effect that Wolfe is trying to achieve. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "As I first read this, I wondered if you weren't conflating Wolfe and\nSeverian.  That last paragraph seems like handwaving, unless we have some\nevidence that Severian's culture has different narrative standards than\nour own. \n\nWe have some data to consider the question.  Severian repeats several\nstories not of his own invention.  Do they show any of the same\nidiosyncrasies as Severian's narrative?\n\n-Rostrum"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}