{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1849", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1849, "subject": "The Commonwealth: North or South", "messages": 8, "voices": 8, "first": "1999-10-25T23:25:09+00:00", "last": "1999-10-27T13:55:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Redhaven1", "address": "redhaven1 at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-10-25T23:25:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm new to this list, so I apologize if this has already been discussed. In \nTBOTNS the Commonwealth is always refered to as being in the south and the \nAscians are from the north, giving rise to the speculations that the \nCommonwealth might be in present-day South America. But I seem to remember \nreading somewhere that scientists believe that the Earth's magnetic poles had \nreversed sometime in the past (perhaps more than once). Has anyone else \nheard of this? In the movie 'Waterworld' the heroes finally found the \nlegendary 'Dry-land' by realizing that when an ancient map said 'North', it \nactually meant 'South' because the north pole was now the magnetic south. If \nTBOTNS is far enough in the future, couldn't it be possible that this had \nhappened in its past and then the Commonwealth could possibly be in the US or \nmaybe Europe? Again, sorry if this theory has already been put forward.\n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey", "address": "mab at lindau.net" }, "date": "1999-10-26T09:13:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Redhaven1 at aol.com wrote:\n\n... I apologize if this has already been discussed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has, including a rather recent iteration which should be in the\nlatest volume. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In\nTBOTNS the Commonwealth is always refered to as being in the south and the\nAscians are from the north, giving rise to the speculations that the\nCommonwealth might be in present-day South America. But I seem to remember\nreading somewhere that scientists believe that the Earth's magnetic poles had\nreversed sometime in the past .... Has anyone else\nheard of this? ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since I've taken an interest in the 'magnetic' aspect of the issue, I'll\nrepeat that Urth, having been said to have solidified nearly through, is\nunlikely to have a significant magnetic field. This is because a\nplanetary magnetic field is believed to be generated by the convection\nand shear of a conductive more-or-less liquid core. E.g. the Sun,\nEarth's core of molten nickel-iron, Jupiter's theoretical outer core of\nhighly compressed 'metallic' hydrogen. Bodies which are believed to be\nnearly solid, such as the Moon, Mercury, Mars, have correspondingly\nweaker magnetic fields. Therefore magnetic compasses and the magnetic\npoles, which may have been utterly forgotten perhaps ages before\nSeverian's time to judge by their absence from the text, evidently are\nnonexistentent and moot. \n\nBTW, I believe the phenomenon of planetary magnetic field reversal has\nbeen attributed in theory to major meteorite impacts massive enough to\njar the circulating fluid. I can't think of any phenomenon, present or\nlegendary, in UNS most likely explainable in terms of a major impact\nother than perhaps mass extinctions. Or maybe the immemorially ancient\nunderground facilities such as those which eons later became the House\nAbsolute and the basement of the Old Citadel were survival shelters\nagainst just such a disaster prior to the first stellar empire." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T10:19:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 7:25 pm 25 October 1999, Steve (Redhaven1 at aol.com) \nwrote:\nI'm new to this list, so I apologize if this has already been \ndiscussed. In TBOTNS the Commonwealth is always re-\nfered to as being in the south and the Ascians are from the \nnorth, giving rise to the speculations that the Common-\nwealth might be in present-day South America. But I seem \nto remember reading somewhere that scientists believe that \nthe Earth's magnetic poles had reversed sometime in the \npast (perhaps more than once). Has anyone else heard of \nthis? In the movie 'Waterworld' the heroes finally found the \nlegendary 'Dry-land' by realizing that when an ancient map \nsaid 'North', it actually meant 'South' because the north pole \nwas now the magnetic south. If TBOTNS is far enough in \nthe future, couldn't it be possible that this had happened in \nits past and then the Commonwealth could possibly be in \nthe US or maybe Europe? Again, sorry if this theory has \nalready been put forward.\n\n-Steve" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and at 9:13 am 26 October 1999, Mitchell A. Bailey \n responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since I've taken an interest in the 'magnetic' aspect of the \nissue, I'll repeat that Urth, having been said to have solid-\nified nearly through, is unlikely to have a significant mag-\nnetic field. This is because a planetary magnetic field is \nbelieved to be generated by the convection and shear of \na conductive more-or-less liquid core. . . . Therefore \nmagnetic compasses and the magnetic poles, which may \nhave been utterly forgotten perhaps ages before Severian's \ntime to judge by their absence from the text, evidently are\nnonexistentent and moot. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome to the list, Steve. You might like to know that our\nesteemed alga is . . . doubtful . . . of the South American set-\nting that most of the rest of the list accepts, so you're in good\ncompany. That said, alga doesn't base her opinion on rever-\nsal of the magnetic poles. It's pretty clear that the sun (and \nother celestial objects) rise in the east and set in the west on\nUrth, so even if there had been magnetic reversal at some \npoint in the past, it would have meant that compasses pointed\nsouth, not that the North Pole (the geographical one, at least; \nit's true that the magnetic direction labeled \"north\" would have\nchanged) had suddenly relocated to Antarctica. \n\nFurthermore, at 9:30 am 26 October 1999, Rostrum (Michael " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Straight) wrote:\nThe ideal solution, of course, is to pass out copies \nof PEACE to all my friends. \n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which I do. It helps to have a lot of good used-book stores\naround.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T22:13:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Mitchell A. Bailey\n\nBTW, I believe the phenomenon of planetary magnetic field reversal has\nbeen attributed in theory to major meteorite impacts massive enough to\njar the circulating fluid. I can't think of any phenomenon, present or\nlegendary, in UNS most likely explainable in terms of a major impact\nother than perhaps mass extinctions. Or maybe the immemorially ancient\nunderground facilities such as those which eons later became the House\nAbsolute and the basement of the Old Citadel were survival shelters\nagainst just such a disaster prior to the first stellar empire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not a Northern Hemisphere Partisan (NHP?) - far from it - but two\nthings struck me on reading your very informative post:\n\n\t1) If poles do flip, AND Urth has lost its magnetic field, might they have\nflipped back before the loss? Then people in Sev's time might retain the\nflipped sense of North.\n\n\t2) Major meteoric impact _without_ pole shifting. Near as I understand the\ngeography of Urth _and_ present-day South America, there simply ain't room\nto fit all Urth's points of interest west of the present-day Andes. Perhaps\na major meteoric impact would start to explain where all that extra land\ncame from.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ************************************\n \"Here's a song that you can sing\n by which to do the measuring\"\n -- Elvis Costello, \"45\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-10-27T04:18:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "North or South--an interesting question. I've always pictured the \nCommonwealth existing in what is now South America--though I had wondered \nabout the east/west problem. Still...if Urth cycles in and out of a \ntechnological civilzation in the meantime, who knows what changes mankind \nwill wreak on the continents?\n\nAt any rate, I'm not extremely entrenched in my position on this question.\n\nI'm curious though...this idea of the magnetic poles \"flipping\" -- was this \nhinted at in the book itself? Where did the theory come from?\n\nDaniel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fr.Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T22:16:53+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Daniel Fusch wrote:\n\n\nI'm curious though...this idea of the magnetic poles\n\"flipping\" -- was this \nhinted at in the book itself? Where did the theory\ncome from?\n\nDaniel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it does help somewhat with all the well worn\narguments as to what hemispere the books take place\nin.\n\n In case it hasn't already been stated (still grazing\npast posts...), the magnetic poles DO flip on occasion\non their own, as evidenced by the alternating magnetic\nparticles in strata of rock. My astro prof wasn't as\ninformed on the WHY, OTOH...;->\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller\n\nThe HeavyGear Parts SwapMeet is at http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/swap.html\nHeavy Gear: Not your Dad's walking robot game...www.dp9.com\n\n\nGaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82 GS650G" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-10-27T02:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re:The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the question of whether the Commonwealth was in the Southern\nHemisphere or not was settled. It is in the Southern Hemisphere, and there's\nno doubt about it. In addition to the points made by Mitchell Bailey and the\nobservations of Mark Millman, it is clearly stated in chapter XXV of\nCITADEL, while the old autarch and Sev are in the flier, just before the\ncrash. Sev tells the autarch what little he knows of the Ascians, that\n\"...they live to the north in the hot countries, and that they're...\" The\nautarch corrects him: \"Half what you said of them was incorrect. They do\nnot come from the hot countries of the north [i.e., near the equator], but\nfrom the continent that lies across the equator.\" Sorry, alga, but there it\nis.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-27T13:55:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:18 PM 10/26/99 PDT, you wrote:\nNorth or South--an interesting question. I've always pictured the \nCommonwealth existing in what is now South America--though I had wondered \nabout the east/west problem. Still...if Urth cycles in and out of a \ntechnological civilzation in the meantime, who knows what changes mankind \nwill wreak on the continents?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThe Slime (Alga) suggested long ago that because of the clearly Byzantine\ncharacter of the Commonwealth, we are really in the Mediterranean. She made\na valiant case for it, but it did not persuade many (any?), and she may not\nhold to it any longer. (Alga?)\n\tAlga's thesis might be salvaged if we are in a physical SA location, near\nBuenos Aires, but the cultural geography is Mediterrean-esque. \n\tDoesn't the Long Sun somewhere say that the Spanish culture of Viron came\nfrom people living near to Pas/Typhon? That might be another indication of\nSouth America. \n\tMy own thinking started by noticing that Blind Ultan is Borges, and that\nNessus looks like a contraction of Buenos Aires (as Meeya Meefla in\nCordwainer Smith is Miami, Fla.). But the Ascians being from the north, the\nhot lands, and also from a continent north of the hot lands, seems to\nsettle the question.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }