Subject: (urth) The Commonwealth: North or South

From: Redhaven1 <redhaven1 at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:25:09 +0000

I'm new to this list, so I apologize if this has already been discussed.  In 
TBOTNS the Commonwealth is always refered to as being in the south and the 
Ascians are from the north, giving rise to the speculations that the 
Commonwealth might be in present-day South America.  But I seem to remember 
reading somewhere that scientists believe that the Earth's magnetic poles had 
reversed sometime in the past (perhaps more than once).  Has anyone else 
heard of this?  In the movie 'Waterworld' the heroes finally found the 
legendary 'Dry-land'  by realizing that when an ancient map said 'North', it 
actually meant 'South' because the north pole was now the magnetic south.  If 
TBOTNS is far enough in the future, couldn't it be possible that this had 
happened in its past and then the Commonwealth could possibly be in the US or 
maybe Europe?  Again, sorry if this theory has already been put forward.

-Steve

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Mitchell A. Bailey <mab at lindau.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:13:34 +0000

Redhaven1 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> ... I apologize if this has already been discussed.  

It has, including a rather recent iteration which should be in the
latest volume. 

> In
> reversed sometime in the past ....  Has anyone else
> heard of this?  ...

Since I've taken an interest in the 'magnetic' aspect of the issue, I'll
repeat that Urth, having been said to have solidified nearly through, is
unlikely to have a significant magnetic field. This is because a
planetary magnetic field is believed to be generated by the convection
and shear of a conductive more-or-less liquid core. E.g. the Sun,
Earth's core of molten nickel-iron, Jupiter's theoretical outer core of
highly compressed 'metallic' hydrogen. Bodies which are believed to be
nearly solid, such as the Moon, Mercury, Mars, have correspondingly
weaker magnetic fields. Therefore magnetic compasses and the magnetic
poles, which may have been utterly forgotten perhaps ages before
Severian's time to judge by their absence from the text, evidently are
nonexistentent and moot. 

BTW, I believe the phenomenon of planetary magnetic field reversal has
been attributed in theory to major meteorite impacts massive enough to
jar the circulating fluid. I can't think of any phenomenon, present or
legendary, in UNS most likely explainable in terms of a major impact
other than perhaps mass extinctions. Or maybe the immemorially ancient
underground facilities such as those which eons later became the House
Absolute and the basement of the Old Citadel were survival shelters
against just such a disaster prior to the first stellar empire.

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From: mark millman <millman at us.ncipher.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:19:06 +0000

At 7:25 pm 25 October 1999, Steve (Redhaven1 at aol.com) 
wrote:

> I'm new to this list, so I apologize if this has already been 
> discussed.  In TBOTNS the Commonwealth is always re-
> fered to as being in the south and the Ascians are from the 
> north, giving rise to the speculations that the Common-
> wealth might be in present-day South America.  But I seem 
> to remember reading somewhere that scientists believe that 
> the Earth's magnetic poles had reversed sometime in the 
> past (perhaps more than once).  Has anyone else heard of 
> this?  In the movie 'Waterworld' the heroes finally found the 
> legendary 'Dry-land'  by realizing that when an ancient map 
> said 'North', it actually meant 'South' because the north pole 
> was now the magnetic south.  If TBOTNS is far enough in 
> the future, couldn't it be possible that this had happened in 
> its past and then the Commonwealth could possibly be in 
> the US or maybe Europe?  Again, sorry if this theory has 
> already been put forward.
>
> -Steve

and at 9:13 am 26 October 1999, Mitchell A. Bailey 
<MAB at lindau.net> responded:

> Since I've taken an interest in the 'magnetic' aspect of the 
> issue, I'll repeat that Urth, having been said to have solid-
> ified nearly through, is unlikely to have a significant mag-
> netic field. This is because a planetary magnetic field is 
> believed to be generated by the convection and shear of 
> a conductive more-or-less liquid core. . . .  Therefore 
> magnetic compasses and the magnetic poles, which may 
> have been utterly forgotten perhaps ages before Severian's 
> time to judge by their absence from the text, evidently are
> nonexistentent and moot. 

Welcome to the list, Steve.  You might like to know that our
esteemed alga is . . . doubtful . . . of the South American set-
ting that most of the rest of the list accepts, so you're in good
company.  That said, alga doesn't base her opinion on rever-
sal of the magnetic poles.  It's pretty clear that the sun (and 
other celestial objects) rise in the east and set in the west on
Urth, so even if there had been magnetic reversal at some 
point in the past, it would have meant that compasses pointed
south, not that the North Pole (the geographical one, at least; 
it's true that the magnetic direction labeled "north" would have
changed) had suddenly relocated to Antarctica.  

Furthermore, at 9:30 am 26 October 1999, Rostrum (Michael 
Straight) <straight at email.unc.edu> wrote:

> The ideal solution, of course, is to pass out copies 
> of PEACE to all my friends. 
>
> -Rostrum

Which I do.  It helps to have a lot of good used-book stores
around.

Mark Millman

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From: Jim Henley <jlhenley at erols.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:13:52 +0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On
> Behalf Of Mitchell A. Bailey
>

I'm not a Northern Hemisphere Partisan (NHP?) - far from it - but two
things struck me on reading your very informative post:

	1) If poles do flip, AND Urth has lost its magnetic field, might they have
flipped back before the loss? Then people in Sev's time might retain the
flipped sense of North.

	2) Major meteoric impact _without_ pole shifting. Near as I understand the
geography of Urth _and_ present-day South America, there simply ain't room
to fit all Urth's points of interest west of the present-day Andes. Perhaps
a major meteoric impact would start to explain where all that extra land
came from.

Best,

Jim
 ************************************
 "Here's a song that you can sing
       by which to do the measuring"
              -- Elvis Costello, "45"

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From: Daniel Fusch <dfusch at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 04:18:00 +0000

North or South--an interesting question. I've always pictured the 
Commonwealth existing in what is now South America--though I had wondered 
about the east/west problem. Still...if Urth cycles in and out of a 
technological civilzation in the meantime, who knows what changes mankind 
will wreak on the continents?

At any rate, I'm not extremely entrenched in my position on this question.

I'm curious though...this idea of the magnetic poles "flipping" -- was this 
hinted at in the book itself? Where did the theory come from?

Daniel

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From: Fr.Inire <inire at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:16:53 +0000

> hinted at in the book itself? Where did the theory

Well, it does help somewhat with all the well worn
arguments as to what hemispere the books take place
in.

 In case it hasn't already been stated (still grazing
past posts...), the magnetic poles DO flip on occasion
on their own, as evidenced by the alternating magnetic
particles in strata of rock. My astro prof wasn't as
informed on the WHY, OTOH...;->

=====
Jeff "My dice hate me!" Miller

The HeavyGear Parts SwapMeet is at http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/swap.html
Heavy Gear: Not your Dad's walking robot game...www.dp9.com

Gaming to keep War out of RealTime!        '82 GS650G
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 02:22:53 +0000

I thought the question of whether the Commonwealth was in the Southern
Hemisphere or not was settled. It is in the Southern Hemisphere, and there's
no doubt about it. In addition to the points made by Mitchell Bailey and the
observations of Mark Millman, it is clearly stated in chapter XXV of
CITADEL, while the old autarch and Sev are in the flier, just before the
crash. Sev tells the autarch what little he knows of the Ascians, that
"...they live to the north in the hot countries, and that they're..." The
autarch corrects him: "Half  what you said of them was incorrect. They do
not come from the hot countries of the north [i.e., near the equator], but
from the continent that lies across the equator." Sorry, alga, but there it
is.

Roy

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:55:59 +0000

>will wreak on the continents?

	The Slime (Alga) suggested long ago that because of the clearly Byzantine
character of the Commonwealth, we are really in the Mediterranean. She made
a valiant case for it, but it did not persuade many (any?), and she may not
hold to it any longer. (Alga?)
	Alga's thesis might be salvaged if we are in a physical SA location, near
Buenos Aires, but the cultural geography is Mediterrean-esque. 
	Doesn't the Long Sun somewhere say that the Spanish culture of Viron came
from people living near to Pas/Typhon? That might be another indication of
South America. 
	My own thinking started by noticing that Blind Ultan is Borges, and that
Nessus looks like a contraction of Buenos Aires (as Meeya Meefla in
Cordwainer Smith is Miami, Fla.). But the Ascians being from the north, the
hot lands, and also from a continent north of the hot lands, seems to
settle the question.

Nutria