{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1859", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1859, "subject": "Juturna's Backstroke (long again)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-10-26T10:19:17+00:00", "last": "1999-10-26T14:24:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greene, Carlton", "address": "cgreene2 at hunton.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T10:19:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna's Backstroke (long again)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote:\n\n<>\n\nThen Vizcacha wrote:\n\n<>\n\nI completely agree. I guess what puzzles me are Juturna's motives for doing\nso -- i.e. why go back and save someone whom you know will bring the New\nSun, if your master is dead set against it. Perhaps the opportunities for\nbefriending, molding, and diverting Sev early in his life were worth the\nrisk of assisting in the creation of a New Sun messiah. Or perhaps Juturna\nis a traitor to Abaia. Or maybe Abaia changed his mind. Anyway, a bit of\na mystery.\n\nI also question what is meant when we are told that the New Sun will\n\"destroy\" Abaia and Erebus. It may be meant literally (i.e. increased solar\nradiation or rising water temperatures or whatever will kill them) or it\ncould be meant figuratively -- i.e. it will destroy their minions the\nAscians, as well as the rest of humanity that they sought to enslave, thus\neffectively eliminating their power and the object of their desires (though\nwe are never told why they wanted mankind so bad).\n\nCertainly the New Sun seems to have little effect on Juturna, who is seen\nfrolicking and munching fish in the waters of Ushas.\n\nOne problem with the Sev's skull theory I advanced is that it assumes a\ncopying of Sev a la the Tzadkiel/hierodule \"writing in the sand\" style of\nresurrection. However, we know that when Sev performs miracles via the\npower of the New Sun, he does so by a different method -- direct\nreconstitution of the dead -- a literal re-animation (returning the anima).\nSince we have no reason to believe that the undines can resurrect, and there\nare no obvious heirodules about, there is a problem there. (of course, there\nis no generic problem with Sev performing miracles at this time -- he brings\nTriskele back).\n\nOne final notion. At one point (no cite, sorry) after bringing the New Sun,\nSev notes that his ability to draw on the power of the New Sun for miracles\nis gone (presumably because his job in bringing the white fountain is done).\nIf so, how does Sev travel from Ushas to the time of Apu-Punchau at\nJuturna's direction? -- it seems from the Apu-Punchau chapters that the\nwalking of the corridors of time takes some energy source. (This in turn\nbegs the question of how the green man does it)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-26T14:24:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Juturna's Backstroke (long again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:19 AM 10/26/99 -0400, you wrote:\n\nOne problem with the Sev's skull theory I advanced is that it assumes a\ncopying of Sev a la the Tzadkiel/hierodule \"writing in the sand\" style of\nresurrection. However, we know that when Sev performs miracles via the\npower of the New Sun, he does so by a different method -- direct\nreconstitution of the dead -- a literal re-animation (returning the anima).\nSince we have no reason to believe that the undines can resurrect, and there\nare no obvious heirodules about, there is a problem there. (of course, there\nis no generic problem with Sev performing miracles at this time -- he brings\nTriskele back)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt's been my assumption that Severian simply cannot be killed, and brings\nhimself back to life, so to speak -- cannot be killed at this pre-New Sun\npoint in his life anyway. But maybe that's not correct. Obviously this is a\nbaptismal scene, and perhaps it is the Outsider (or Increate) who does\nthis, since the entire redemptive scenario is His doing, ultimately. \n\tSuch a construction would fit with Wolfean beliefs, but is it actually\nwhat is intended here? Perhaps, is we let the Silk narrative inform the\nSeverian narrative a bit. Wolfe is interested not only in how Severian came\nto the throne (which is Severian's interest), but how Severian begins to\noutgrow a horrible background and upbringing, becoming a (somewhat) better\nman. One would expect some kind of religious experience to be the point at\nwhich that growth is initiated. \n\tOf course, where this is pretty obvious in the Silk narrative, it is way\nin the background of Severian's. The Increate, or Pancreator, and the\nTheoanthropos (Jesus Christ, only mentioned once) are not, in any obvious\nway at least, directly interacting with Severian.\n\tI still suspect that we only have the first two parts of a Severian\ntrilogy, however, and that eventually there may be more to come. Wolfe has\nexplored politics (war, sovereignty) in the first four-fold part, and\necology in the second. But his ultimate interest is in redemption,\nunderstood in the broadest possible way. \n\tArguably, though, the Long Sun narrative is that \"third part.\" \n\tThe Severian narrative would be Wolfe's \"Old Testament,\" and the Silk\nnarrative, with Horn afterward, would be his \"New Testament.\" God is way in\nthe background, working through numerous mediators, in the Severian\nnarrative; but He becomes an Actor in the Silk narrative. Remember that the\nNoahic Flood did end one corrupt world, ruled by Mighty Men, and brought in\na new one, but not THE new one of the whole Bible narrative. \n\tConsider that Jesus did his work in a tiny province within an empire that\ncovered only part of the globe. But what He set in motion gradually changes\nthe entire course of human civilization. (Whether some of us like this or\nnot is not at issue; Wolfe thinks so, and writes in terms of that belief.)\nSuppose that Silk's work is destined to spread not only to all of the\nWhorl, but also back to Urth as well....\n\tJust some grist for your mills.\n\nNutria\n\nNutria\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }