{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1861", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1861, "subject": "Borges and Vance", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-10-26T14:46:43+00:00", "last": "1999-10-28T09:13:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David_Lebling", "address": "david_lebling at avid.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T14:58:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce writes of Borges' influence on Wolfe:\n<>\n\nI'd like to add, as a less obvious one, also from _Ficciones_, \"The Approach to\nal'Mutasim.\" This is a story about a pulp genre (mystery) novel which\neventually concerns the search for a messiah-like figure. It is a work with\nmany levels, but one of them is a meditation on the importance of mystery (or\nperhaps the unattainability of truth) in fiction. One part of the story\nconcerns a revised edition of the book in question, in which all the mysteries\nare revealed, producing a much inferior work. At another level it is about\nreligion, and subtle hints, and many other bits and pieces (including a\nplanetary, um, Indian adventure) which are quite lupine.\n\nBut then, all Wolfe fans are Borges fans already, right?\n\nAlso,\n<>\n\nCouldn't agree more. However (as mantis has pointed out elsewhere), there is\nquite a contrast between Vance's picaresque, areligious, sometimes amoral heroes\nand Wolfe's tormented, sometimes unknowing seekers after God. To be honest,\nSev's behavior is not unlike that of a Vance hero; he just agonizes over it\nmore.\n\nBut then, all Wolfe fans are Vance fans already, right?\n\n(A sad parallel between Borges and Vance is that Vance is now blind or nearly\nso.)\n\n Dave Lebling\n (aka vizcacha)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-26T14:46:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:58 PM 10/26/99 -0400, you wrote:\n\nBut then, all Wolfe fans are Borges fans already, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be sure. And Borges was a super-Chesterton fan. As is Wolfe, of course.\n\nOne should probably also add, as regards religious influences, C.S. Lewis,\nwho of course also was influenced by Chesterton.\n\nUltimately, however, Wolfe is ... Wolfe. Sui generis.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T22:14:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of David_Lebling at avid.com\n\nBut then, all Wolfe fans are Borges fans already, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You betcha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(A sad parallel between Borges and Vance is that Vance is now\nblind or nearly so.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And they haven't given Vance the damned Nobel Prize yet either. Say, has\nanyone ever seen Vance and Borges _together_?\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ****************************\n \"I once was lost\n\tbut now I'm just blind\"\n\t\t\t- Kid Rock" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-27T09:32:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 David_Lebling at avid.com wrote:\nAlex David Groce writes of Borges' influence on Wolfe:\n<>\n\nI'd like to add, as a less obvious one, also from _Ficciones_, \"The Approach to\nal'Mutasim.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd also like to add \"The Immortal,\" a story which reminds me more of\nWolfe's style than any other. For instance, the narrator gives offhanded\ncomments from which one can infer his cruelty, not because he's trying to\nhide anything, but because torturing slaves for information or crucifying\nseditious soldiers is such standard operating procedure that it hardly\nbears mentioning.\n\nAlso the cool, distanced tone of the narrator reminds me of one of Wolfe's\nnarrators (Severian, Latro).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-27T19:14:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Michael Straight\n\nAlso the cool, distanced tone of the narrator reminds me of one\nof Wolfe's narrators (Severian, Latro)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. \"Cool\" and \"distanced\" are the last words I'd have applied to Latro. I\ncan see it for Sev though.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart\n it's just the thought of someone sticking it in\"\n -- Graham Parker, \"Protection\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-27T22:14:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Jim Henley wrote:\nAlso the cool, distanced tone of the narrator reminds me of one\nof Wolfe's narrators (Severian, Latro)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. \"Cool\" and \"distanced\" are the last words I'd have applied to Latro. I\ncan see it for Sev though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I'm thinking of is that both narrators have a tendency to report\nextraordinary events in an almost casual way sometimes neglecting to go\ninto detail about what we would consider the most interesting or unusual\naspect of events. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-27T23:38:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Michael Straight\n\nWhat I'm thinking of is that both narrators have a tendency to report\nextraordinary events in an almost casual way sometimes neglecting to go\ninto detail about what we would consider the most interesting or unusual\naspect of events." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but so much of the time, Latro has no standard by which to tell the\nevents are unusual, is the impression I get. He describes meeting, say, the\nriver god casually because for all he knows this sort of thing happens all\nthe time.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ************************************\n \"Here's a song that you can sing\n by which to do the measuring\"\n -- Elvis Costello, \"45\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-28T09:13:46+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Borges and Vance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Jim Henley wrote:\nWhat I'm thinking of is that both narrators have a tendency to report\nextraordinary events in an almost casual way sometimes neglecting to go\ninto detail about what we would consider the most interesting or unusual\naspect of events." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but so much of the time, Latro has no standard by which to tell the\nevents are unusual, is the impression I get. He describes meeting, say, the\nriver god casually because for all he knows this sort of thing happens all\nthe time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well sure, I didn't mean to malign Latro and say that he personally was\ncool and distanced, it's his narrative style I was talking about.\n\nYou could make a similar argument that it's Severian's perfect memory\nrather than his actual temperment that creates that effect in his\nnarrative.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }