{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1863", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1863, "subject": "Modernism continues (long and sort of boring)", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-10-26T16:54:46+00:00", "last": "1999-10-27T14:28:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "pei047 at attglobal.net" }, "date": "1999-10-26T16:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Modernism continues (long and sort of boring)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Daniel Fusch\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe's work is likely to last into the next century, although it\nis\nunlikely that he will receive much in the way of critical attention for\nsome\ntime to come." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga rejoins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I never meant that! I was making a point about his encompassing the big\npulp traditions with these series, using every bit of the familiar cliches\nbut making them into something bigger and richer so that readers to come\ncould somehow absorb the 20th c. tradition without having to wade through\nthe innumerable precursors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Rat adds:\n\nI add this (depressing) thought:\n\tWolfe's writing may be so complex, and so dependent on the tropes of SF,\nthat he will never make it into a \"canon.\" It is hard to imagine non-SF\npeople reading it and thinking much of it, save that it is \"weird and\nwell-written, but what on earth is he talking about?\"\n\tAnybody have anything more positive to put out against such a negative\nthought?\n\nNo, not more positive, but I do have some more not entirely coherent\nthoughts (entirely skippable by those not much interested in the subject.)\n\nWhen I was quite young, the hot modernist book was -The Recognitions- by Wm\nGaddis, which, thank goodness, I did not attempt to read at the time. Much\nlater, after I became interested in church history, I did read it (with a\npony, I confess) and now I love it in a qualified way. But it's a hard read,\nthen and now, and for people *not* interested in church history or the\nabstract New York School of art, maybe not worth it. I'll bet a lot of the\nyounger people on this list haven't even heard of it. They *have* heard of\nD.F. Wallace's -Infinite Jest- the hot modernist book of the moment, but,\nfor similar reasons (not church history, difficulty), the next generation\nvery probably will not have. At about the same time as Gaddis's\nbook, -Catch-22- also came out, and I think you could make a case for it as\na pop modernist novel (it also expressed a lot of young people's cynicism\nabout war, a new kind of cynicism). At any rate, it seems to have achieved\n20th c. immortality. It's an easy read, however.\n\nWhereas the \"pure\" American modernist movement (apart from young Wallace,\nwho's also pretty pure) has not fared well. Coover and Hawkes have retreated\ninto pornographic japery, Gass into essays, Barth into heaven knows what.\n(I'm not sure he's still alive.) Gaddis was the biggest deal, and he's not\nread. My guess would be that when 20th c. US survey courses are taught, the\nmodernist representative will be Barthelme, mostly because he's short, but\nalso he has a kind of elegance somewhat missing from the others. I don't\nthink the whole bunch of them are much loved.\n\nThe one modernist book to be loved isn't American, it's -Ulysses-. Why?\nWell, call *me* cynical here, but it's the very first one that most students\ntackle (chronologically) and it is *so* difficult that it creates a kind of\nhigh in kids (it did in me). Once you have struggled through it, however,\nyou don't necessarily want to take on another one!\n\nBut scholars will read these books (culled). They are the 20th c.\nexperiment. They are a quirk of our times. And it is scholars and teachers\nwho will form the 20th c. canon. 20th c. genre fiction is sure to be taught\ntoo, and this is where Wolfe may shine. They're hardly going to be teaching\nTerry Brooks! But teaching Wolfe gives an opportunity to allude to all this\npaperback fodder without actually having to dirty your hands. So, yes, I\nthink he will make it into a canon of sorts.\n\nWhew. Sorry. I'll get back to normal soon.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T17:26:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Modernism continues (long and sort of boring)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:54 PM 10/26/99 -0400, alga wrote:\nWhereas the \"pure\" American modernist movement (apart from young Wallace,\nwho's also pretty pure) has not fared well. Coover and Hawkes have retreated\ninto pornographic japery, Gass into essays, Barth into heaven knows what.\n(I'm not sure he's still alive.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Barth is alive and kicking, with a new novel every couple of years. He's\nnot the bestseller he was in the 1960s, but he endures. Coover also\npublishes every couple of years, and he's always been rather bawdy...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But teaching Wolfe gives an opportunity to allude to all this\npaperback fodder without actually having to dirty your hands. So, yes, I\nthink he will make it into a canon of sorts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooh. Good point. Wolfe is, in many ways, the \"good parts version\" of sf. \n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-10-26T22:30:46+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Modernism continues (long and sort of boring)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Alice Turner\n\nWhen I was quite young, the hot modernist book was -The\nRecognitions- by Wm\nGaddis, which, thank goodness, I did not attempt to read at the\ntime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I started _JR_ [another Gaddis book - ed.] about 10 years ago on vacation.\nI figured, as I usually do, I will read until my interest flags, then I\nwill stop at the next chapter or section break. About 100 pages in, I\nthought to check - no, there were no chapter or section breaks in the\nentire book. Fuck this, I thought, and never picked it up again.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ******************************************\n\"There will always be Costello/\n a little larceny Bacharach,\n in everyone\" \"My Thief\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Schmidt", "address": "dfan at harmonixmusic.com" }, "date": "1999-10-27T14:28:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Modernism continues (long and sort of boring)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Alice Turner\" writes:\n\n| When I was quite young, the hot modernist book was -The\n| Recognitions- by Wm Gaddis, which, thank goodness, I did not attempt\n| to read at the time. Much later, after I became interested in church\n| history, I did read it (with a pony, I confess) and now I love it in\n| a qualified way. But it's a hard read, then and now, and for people\n| *not* interested in church history or the abstract New York School\n| of art, maybe not worth it. I'll bet a lot of the younger people on\n| this list haven't even heard of it. They *have* heard of\n| D.F. Wallace's -Infinite Jest- the hot modernist book of the moment,\n| but, for similar reasons (not church history, difficulty), the next\n| generation very probably will not have.\n\nI administrate the David Foster Wallace email list, and I know a lot\nof people there, at least, have heard of THE RECOGNITIONS, if not read\nit. I read it back when I was twenty or so and enjoyed it a great\ndeal; I keep on meaning to go back to it now that I have the Reader's\nGuide.\n\nGaddis did get some recognition for winning a National Book Award for\nA FROLIC OF HIS OWN a few years back (which is the best book to start\nwith, in my opinion). And for dying, unfortunately.\n\nI am sure that a lot of people here would find Gaddis interesting for\nthe same reasons that they like Wolfe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Schmidt | http://www2.thecia.net/users/dfan/" } ] } ] }