{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1869", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1869, "subject": "Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-10-27T14:32:41+00:00", "last": "1999-11-05T10:46:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-10-27T14:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm new to the list, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed.\n\nWe know that Wolfe is interested in writing about the classical period from\nthe Soldier books, and that though a Christian, he shows an admiration for\nthe virtue of certain ancient pagans, so it seems quite plausible to me\nthat the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, better known as Marcus\nAurelius, could form part of the basis for Sev's character. Not only is\nAntoninus a philosopher-emperor, just as Sev is a philosopher-autarch, but\nthe _tone_ of the New Sun books and the tone of the _Meditations_ are very\nsimilar to my ear, and the books appeal to me for some of the same reasons,\none being that both Sev and Antoninus are men who strive through their\nphilosophy _to be good_.\n\nSev was a torturer before (and while?) becoming Conciliator and Autarch,\nyet we are faced with the paradox that he is somehow good. It is claimed,\nby some historians at least, that Antoninus as Emperor ordered a number of\nearly Christians to be tortured and killed, yet he seems to the reader to\nhave been a good man as well. Could these paradoxes be somehow intertwined\nin the Wolfean authorial mind?\n\nPeace...\n\nRon H-E" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1999-10-27T23:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm new to the list, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed.\n\nWe know that Wolfe is interested in writing about the classical period from\nthe Soldier books, and that though a Christian, he shows an admiration for\nthe virtue of certain ancient pagans, so it seems quite plausible to me\nthat the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, better known as Marcus\nAurelius, could form part of the basis for Sev's character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you may have more luck mapping Marcus Aurelius to Patera Silk.\nSeverian is Claudius -- the Graves version. (Could the grave robbers\nin Chapter I of _Shadow_ be some sort of horrible unspoken punning\nhomage to Robert Graves?)\n\nFor fun, compare Master Ultan with Graves's description of Sulpicius\nat the end of Chapter V of _I, Claudius._ Ultan informs us that his\nLibrary has a reading room reserved for the Autarch Sulpicius....\n\nraster at highfiber.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-11-03T11:25:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:51 PM 10/27/99, you wrote:\nRon Hale-Evans writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm new to the list, so please forgive me if this has already been\ndiscussed.\n\nWe know that Wolfe is interested in writing about the classical period from\nthe Soldier books, and that though a Christian, he shows an admiration for\nthe virtue of certain ancient pagans, so it seems quite plausible to me\nthat the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, better known as Marcus\nAurelius, could form part of the basis for Sev's character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you may have more luck mapping Marcus Aurelius to Patera Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be; I have only read the first two Long Sun books, and that some time\nago. (One reason is they seem to me to lack the richness of tone that I\nfind in both TBotNS and Marcus Aurelius.) But see below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian is Claudius -- the Graves version. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both Claudius and Severian backed into the throne, and both are lame. But I\nthink Claudius is presented as something of a bumbling fool (though of\ncourse he often plays the fool as well), and this is hard to say of\nSeverian. And Sev and Marcus Aurelius both lead armies into battle,\nsomething Claudius could never do. \n\nAnother tidbit: The concept of self-sufficiency was a primary one for the\nStoics. What is that word in Greek? \"Autarkês.\" (That's an 'e' with a\ncircumflex accent for those with 7-bit mailers.) See\n. Malrubius's lecture to\nSeverian on autarchy and self-rule sounds similar to Stoic passages on the\nsame topic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Could the grave robbers\nin Chapter I of _Shadow_ be some sort of horrible unspoken punning\nhomage to Robert Graves?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gallows humour occurs throughout TBotNS, so if Sev is to any degree a\nClaudius figure, I would not put it past Wolfe.\n\nDisclaimer: I am mainly familiar with _I, Claudius_ through television, not\nthe book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For fun, compare Master Ultan with Graves's description of Sulpicius\nat the end of Chapter V of _I, Claudius._ Ultan informs us that his\nLibrary has a reading room reserved for the Autarch Sulpicius..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Will do.\n\nRon H-E" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-03T15:08:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both Claudius and Severian backed into the throne, and both are lame. But I\nthink Claudius is presented as something of a bumbling fool (though of\ncourse he often plays the fool as well), and this is hard to say of\nSeverian. And Sev and Marcus Aurelius both lead armies into battle,\nsomething Claudius could never do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, in CLAUDIUS THE GOD, he does just that--using (IIRC, it's been\na good while since I read it) elephants in the battle to frighten the British.\nClaudius is actually (in Graves' version) a decent military planner, and the\nbattle description and especially the elephants are (I think) a clear influence\non the \"look and feel\" of the battles in CITADEL. In general, from the \nprophecy of the Sybil at Cumae, etc., Severian is quite explicitly patterned\non Claudius. In fact the quickest way to sum up what happens to Severian is:\ntake the events that happen to Caludius, mix in the Gospel narratives, and\nthen embed it all in a sword-and-sorcery journey tale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disclaimer: I am mainly familiar with _I, Claudius_ through television, not\nthe book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The books are quite entertaining, and Claudius is much less of a fool than in\nthe television series (or, quite probably, history). And they are definitely\na big influence on NEW SUN--for example, I think Valeria's name is Valeria \nbecause Claudius' wife was Valeria Messalina.\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-04T11:05:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans wrote:\nBoth Claudius and Severian backed into the throne, and both are lame. But I\nthink Claudius is presented as something of a bumbling fool (though of\ncourse he often plays the fool as well), and this is hard to say of\nSeverian. And Sev and Marcus Aurelius both lead armies into battle,\nsomething Claudius could never do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Claudius might not have \"lead\" armies into battle but he did, iirc,\ncommand them. Graves recounts the strategies of the battle of \"Burnt\nWood\" (Brentwood, Essex, England) including the use of elephants and\nthe stilt walking soldiers disguised as storks that strikes me as\nvery Wolfean, or better that the one battle Severian tells of has\nelements reminiscent of Graves.\n\nBy the time Severian ascends to the Autarchy I doubt that he's any\nmore \"lead\" armies into battle than Claudius did.\n\nBut as to characters Graves' trick is to slowly lead the reader into\nthe realisation that Claudius understands far more than those around\nhim, and the reader, realise. Wolfe however gradually exposes\nSeverian's claims of authoritative memory as unrealiable - an\nopposite process.\n \nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Dye", "address": "raster at highfiber.com" }, "date": "1999-11-04T08:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The books are quite entertaining, and Claudius is much less of a fool than in\nthe television series (or, quite probably, history). And they are definitely\na big influence on NEW SUN--for example, I think Valeria's name is Valeria \nbecause Claudius' wife was Valeria Messalina." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely, but the fact that Valeria is a *heliotropic* flower was clearly\na big bonus!\n\nSpeaking of flowers, isn't Marcus's reign believed to have been mellowed by\nhis use of a mind-altering drug? There's a connection with Severian, perhaps.\n\nraster at highfiber.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-11-04T13:14:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To those who say Severian was modelled more on Claudius than Marcus\nAurelius: Uncle! As Jim Henley put it the other day, \"I yield to your\nsuperior evidence. Indeed, I roll on my back and stretch my neck before\nyou, making piteous mewling sounds.\" (I found this retraction so charming\nthat I sent the snippet to a few friends.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:05 AM 11/4/99 +0000, Matthew Malthouse wrote:\nRon Hale-Evans wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Both Claudius and Severian backed into the throne, and both are lame. But I\nthink Claudius is presented as something of a bumbling fool (though of\ncourse he often plays the fool as well), and this is hard to say of\nSeverian. And Sev and Marcus Aurelius both lead armies into battle,\nsomething Claudius could never do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Claudius might not have \"lead\" armies into battle but he did, iirc,\ncommand them.... [snip]\nBy the time Severian ascends to the Autarchy I doubt that he's any\nmore \"lead\" armies into battle than Claudius did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why the scare quotes? Do you not believe that what they do is worthy of\nbeing called leading? (Or is it a micro-spelling-flame -- did you think I\nwas using the verb in the past tense?)\n\nAssuming the former: My copies of TBoTNS have been in storage across the\ncountry for about three years, but I broke down and bought _Shadow and\nClaw_ recently, and I'll buy the next two volumes as I get to them. My\nmemory of _Citadel_ is therefore somewhat vague, but didn't Sev at one\npoint lead a charge on the battlefield? If he didn't lead an army as such,\nat least he led a squadron or a battalion or something. My only point was\nthat this was a most un-Claudius-like thing to do, based on my limited\nknowledge of the Claudius books, which came through television rather than\nreading Graves. It fits with what we know of Marcus Aurelius, however.\n\nSpeaking of Wolfe and Graves, here's a slightly off-topic question: did\nanyone else get the impression that Wolfe was cribbing heavily from _The\nWhite Goddess_ in _There Are Doors_?\n\nRon H-E" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-05T10:46:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Severian as Marcus Aurelius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans wrote:\nClaudius might not have \"lead\" armies into battle but he did, iirc,\ncommand them.... [snip]\nBy the time Severian ascends to the Autarchy I doubt that he's any\nmore \"lead\" armies into battle than Claudius did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why the scare quotes? Do you not believe that what they do is worthy of\nbeing called leading? (Or is it a micro-spelling-flame -- did you think I\nwas using the verb in the past tense?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, nothing so subtle at all. Just trying to distinguish between\ndaring-do, gung-ho leading from at the front, once more unto the\nbreach stuff a la Harry V and the way sensible generals do it. :) \nThink Peirson's Puppeteer!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Assuming the former: My copies of TBoTNS have been in storage across the\ncountry for about three years, but I broke down and bought _Shadow and\nClaw_ recently, and I'll buy the next two volumes as I get to them. My\nmemory of _Citadel_ is therefore somewhat vague, but didn't Sev at one\npoint lead a charge on the battlefield? If he didn't lead an army as such,\nat least he led a squadron or a battalion or something. My only point was\nthat this was a most un-Claudius-like thing to do, based on my limited\nknowledge of the Claudius books, which came through television rather than\nreading Graves. It fits with what we know of Marcus Aurelius, however." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I yield to your...\" etc etc. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of Wolfe and Graves, here's a slightly off-topic question: did\nanyone else get the impression that Wolfe was cribbing heavily from _The\nWhite Goddess_ in _There Are Doors_?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn! I hate it when people say things like this. It invariably\nmeans that within the week I shall be reading one, or both.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }