Subject: (urth) Severian as Marcus Aurelius

From: Ron Hale-Evans <rwhe at apocalypse.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:32:41 +0000

I'm new to the list, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed.

We know that Wolfe is interested in writing about the classical period from
the Soldier books, and that though a Christian, he shows an admiration for
the virtue of certain ancient pagans, so it seems quite plausible to me
that the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, better known as Marcus
Aurelius, could form part of the basis for Sev's character. Not only is
Antoninus a philosopher-emperor, just as Sev is a philosopher-autarch, but
the _tone_ of the New Sun books and the tone of the _Meditations_ are very
similar to my ear, and the books appeal to me for some of the same reasons,
one being that both Sev and Antoninus are men who strive through their
philosophy _to be good_.

Sev was a torturer before (and while?) becoming Conciliator and Autarch,
yet we are faced with the paradox that he is somehow good. It is claimed,
by some historians at least, that Antoninus as Emperor ordered a number of
early Christians to be tortured and killed, yet he seems to the reader to
have been a good man as well. Could these paradoxes be somehow intertwined
in the Wolfean authorial mind?

Peace...

Ron H-E

--
Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org  ... <http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/>
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*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Charles Dye <raster at highfiber.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:51:28 +0000

Ron Hale-Evans <rwhe at apocalypse.org> writes:
>Aurelius, could form part of the basis for Sev's character.

I think you may have more luck mapping Marcus Aurelius to Patera Silk.
Severian is Claudius -- the Graves version.  (Could the grave robbers
in Chapter I of _Shadow_ be some sort of horrible unspoken punning
homage to Robert Graves?)

For fun, compare Master Ultan with Graves's description of Sulpicius
at the end of Chapter V of _I, Claudius._  Ultan informs us that his
Library has a reading room reserved for the Autarch Sulpicius....

raster at highfiber.com

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From: Ron Hale-Evans <rwhe at apocalypse.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:25:01 +0000

>I think you may have more luck mapping Marcus Aurelius to Patera Silk.

Could be; I have only read the first two Long Sun books, and that some time
ago. (One reason is they seem to me to lack the richness of tone that I
find in both TBotNS and Marcus Aurelius.) But see below.

>Severian is Claudius -- the Graves version.  

Both Claudius and Severian backed into the throne, and both are lame. But I
think Claudius is presented as something of a bumbling fool (though of
course he often plays the fool as well), and this is hard to say of
Severian. And Sev and Marcus Aurelius both lead armies into battle,
something Claudius could never do. 

Another tidbit: The concept of self-sufficiency was a primary one for the
Stoics. What is that word in Greek? "Autarkês." (That's an 'e' with a
circumflex accent for those with 7-bit mailers.) See
<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/>. Malrubius's lecture to
Severian on autarchy and self-rule sounds similar to Stoic passages on the
same topic.

>(Could the grave robbers

Gallows humour occurs throughout TBotNS, so if Sev is to any degree a
Claudius figure, I would not put it past Wolfe.

Disclaimer: I am mainly familiar with _I, Claudius_ through television, not
the book.

>Library has a reading room reserved for the Autarch Sulpicius...

Will do.

Ron H-E

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:08:36 +0000

>something Claudius could never do.

Actually, in CLAUDIUS THE GOD, he does just that--using (IIRC, it's been
a good while since I read it) elephants in the battle to frighten the British.
Claudius is actually (in Graves' version) a decent military planner, and the
battle description and especially the elephants are (I think) a clear influence
on the "look and feel" of the battles in CITADEL.  In general, from the 
prophecy of the Sybil at Cumae, etc., Severian is quite explicitly patterned
on Claudius.  In fact the quickest way to sum up what happens to Severian is:
take the events that happen to Caludius, mix in the Gospel narratives, and
then embed it all in a sword-and-sorcery journey tale.

>Disclaimer: I am mainly familiar with _I, Claudius_ through television, not

The books are quite entertaining, and Claudius is much less of a fool than in
the television series (or, quite probably, history).  And they are definitely
a big influence on NEW SUN--for example, I think Valeria's name is Valeria 
because Claudius' wife was Valeria Messalina.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:05:44 +0000

> something Claudius could never do.

Claudius might not have "lead" armies into battle but he did, iirc,
command them. Graves recounts the strategies of the battle of "Burnt
Wood" (Brentwood, Essex, England) including the use of elephants and
the stilt walking soldiers disguised as storks that strikes me as
very Wolfean, or better that the one battle Severian tells of has
elements reminiscent of Graves.

By the time Severian ascends to the Autarchy I doubt that he's any
more "lead" armies into battle than Claudius did.

But as to characters Graves' trick is to slowly lead the reader into
the realisation that Claudius understands far more than those around
him, and the reader, realise. Wolfe however gradually exposes
Severian's claims of authoritative memory as unrealiable - an
opposite process.
 
Matthew

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From: Charles Dye <raster at highfiber.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:24:38 +0000

>because Claudius' wife was Valeria Messalina.

Definitely, but the fact that Valeria is a *heliotropic* flower was clearly
a big bonus!

Speaking of flowers, isn't Marcus's reign believed to have been mellowed by
his use of a mind-altering drug?  There's a connection with Severian, perhaps.

raster at highfiber.com

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From: Ron Hale-Evans <rwhe at apocalypse.org>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 13:14:00 +0000

To those who say Severian was modelled more on Claudius than Marcus
Aurelius: Uncle! As Jim Henley put it the other day, "I yield to your
superior evidence. Indeed, I roll on my back and stretch my neck before
you, making piteous mewling sounds." (I found this retraction so charming
that I sent the snippet to a few friends.)

At 11:05 AM 11/4/99 +0000, Matthew Malthouse wrote:
>command them.... [snip]

Why the scare quotes? Do you not believe that what they do is worthy of
being called leading? (Or is it a micro-spelling-flame -- did you think I
was using the verb in the past tense?)

Assuming the former: My copies of TBoTNS have been in storage across the
country for about three years, but I broke down and bought _Shadow and
Claw_ recently, and I'll buy the next two volumes as I get to them. My
memory of _Citadel_ is therefore somewhat vague, but didn't Sev at one
point lead a charge on the battlefield? If he didn't lead an army as such,
at least he led a squadron or a battalion or something. My only point was
that this was a most un-Claudius-like thing to do, based on my limited
knowledge of the Claudius books, which came through television rather than
reading Graves. It fits with what we know of Marcus Aurelius, however.

Speaking of Wolfe and Graves, here's a slightly off-topic question: did
anyone else get the impression that Wolfe was cribbing heavily from _The
White Goddess_ in _There Are Doors_?

Ron H-E

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From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 10:46:26 +0000

> was using the verb in the past tense?)

Oh, nothing so subtle at all.  Just trying to distinguish between
daring-do, gung-ho leading from at the front, once more unto the
breach stuff a la Harry V and the way sensible generals do it.  :) 
Think Peirson's Puppeteer!

> reading Graves. It fits with what we know of Marcus Aurelius, however.

"I yield to your..." etc etc. 

> White Goddess_ in _There Are Doors_?

Damn!  I hate it when people say things like this. It invariably
means that within the week I shall be reading one, or both.

Matthew