{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1909", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1909, "subject": "Fairy Tale logic? Bah!", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-11-02T21:15:26+00:00", "last": "1999-11-04T16:15:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ouroboros", "address": "ottofaij at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-11-02T21:15:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fairy Tale logic? Bah!", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no, no, no. Wolfe does not use \"Fairy Tale logic\"\nin TBOTNS. While Wolfe is not a speculative SF writer\nin the tradition of Asimov, Hienlen, or Verne, the New\nSun books and 5HC are quite rooted in technical\nscientific theories -- possibly, more so than those\nwriters. Sure, he presents mythological elements in\nthese stories. And, granted that Severian's\nhealing/resurrection powers seem mystical and their\nrationalization are the heart of the most difficult\npuzzels in the New Sun. But most (possibly all) of the\ncharacters and situations are surely rationalized, and\nmany are based on solid modern scientific theories.\n\nTyphon/Piaton\n<<>>>> \nThis is not the way I visualize Typhon at all. For one\nthing, since Severian at first supposed that Piaton\nhad been grafted on to Typhon, Typhon's head must be\nin the natural location. Both Typhon's and Piaton's\nheads are connected to Piaton's spine so Typhon's\nbrain can control the voluntary muscles and Piaton's\nthe involuntary. The picture here is Piaton's neck\ngrowing out of the base of Typhon's neck like a\nstrange boil. When Piaton's head is removed it will\nleave only an ugly scar just as Typhon claimed.\n\nBaldanders, Abaia, Erebus\nThe nature of these \"giants\" has been explained by\nWolfe. They are men who, seeking immortality, have\nused a logical method of continuous growth. Remember\nthat when our bodies stop growing, we grow old and\ndie. When our brains stop growing we start loosing\n10,000 brain cells a day. Continuous growth equals\nimmortality.\n\nFather Inire's Mirrors\nQuantum tunneling is the theory behind Father Inire's\nmirrors. It is also how Severian brings the New Sun.\nAnd it's the theory behind the \"word written in the\nsand\" analogy in URTH. Finally, since quantum theory\nviews all matter (and other energy) as waves rather\nthan only particles, it is behind the many Severians.\nSeverian exists in all his many incarnations at once,\nand only in a relative sense does he exist locally (I\nrealize I'm treating quantum theory trivially here).\n\nMuch of what's going on in TBOTNS was suddenly clear\nto me when I read somewhere that Wolfe first got the\nidea for New Sun story when he read an article called\n\"The Creation of Universes Out of Nothing\" in Physics\nLetters. It allegedly theorized about how the universe\ncould have been created by quantum tunneling. I have\nnot been able yet to find this article or any\ncorroboration that Wolfe was inspired by it. Yet,\nafter I found out what QT was, the knowledge seemed\nindespensible to understanding the books.\n\nThe following site gives a good overview of quantum\ntunneling for the layman.\nhttp://www.zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/quantum_tunneling.html.\n\nNow quantum tunneling of macroscopic objects has not\nbeen observed to my knowledge, but the theory is sound\nand many physicists believe it is possible. Far fewer\nbelieve it is feasible for interstellar space travel,\nbut if it were, it would permit instantaneous rather\nthan merely faster-than-light travel. So the mirrors\ncan hardly be called magical in a real sense, and\nFather Inire's explanation is NOT gibberish.\n\nNow you skeptics are probably wondering why if it is\nso important Wolfe didn't discuss QT in the\nappendices. The only answer to that I can give is what\nSeverian would say: \"it is a profound mistake to\nbelieve that we must know such things to be influenced\nby them.\"\n\n-Ouroboros" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-03T09:25:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Fairy Tale logic? Bah!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Ouroboros wrote:\nNo, no, no, no. Wolfe does not use \"Fairy Tale logic\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this. When I think of \"Fairy Tale logic\" I think of George\nMacDonald (e.g. \"The Golden Key\" or _Phantasties_) which has a very\ndifferent feel from what Wolfe is doing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quantum tunneling is the theory behind Father Inire's\nmirrors. It is also how Severian brings the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, I view this as somewhat equivalent to Dr. Crane's\ntheory about Silk having a stroke. It still leaves too much unexplained.\nHow can QT explain the New Sun being attached to Severian, or being\n\"birthed\" by an act of intercourse?\n\nI agree that Wolfe wants us to read TBOTNS as SF rather than fantasy, yet\nI think he's also saying that this universe (Severian's as well as ours)\nmay contain wonders that are inexplicable. He strings us along with clues\nand partial explanations so that instead of thinking, \"Oh, this is magic\"\nand dismissing it, we keep thinking \"Surely there's an explanation for\nall this...isn't there?\"\n\nIf we are unsuprised by a butterfly pulled out of a rainbow (AGIA: \"Aw,\nSeverian, that trick never works!\") I don't think it is because we've\ndecided Urth is a fantasy world where magic \"works,\" but Wolfe has made us\nbelieve that such a thing could really happen--either because there is a\n\"scientific explanation,\" or because there really are miracles.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-03T18:30:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Fairy Tale logic? Bah!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. As usual I'm joining the debate after all the clever\nstuff has been said, but count me in as a member of the\nNOT-fairy-tale-logic camp, too.\n\nOne of the games TBOTNS plays, as we've said many times, is\nto take existing fantasy cliches and give them an entirely\nnew spin. One of the best ways you can do that is to give a\nscientific explanation to a classically \"fantastic\" event.\n\nWe've all become so accustomed to thinking of Typhon as\nAutarch, Satan, and mysterious link to the Whorl that it's\neasy to forget exactly how we first encounter him. As Sev\nsays, it's as if a constellation has taken on human form.\nTyphon is a two-headed giant. An ogre. A troll. Because\nthat's what heroes meet when they're wondering in the\nmountains. The twist is, this troll is bio-engineered.\n\nThe explanation of Father Inire's mirrors is important for\nthe same reason. Magic mirrors are a fantasy cliche - the\nidea that travel-by-mirror could actually work is something\nnew and thought-provoking. To complain that the explanation\nis psuedoscience is unsporting - any and every SF story that\nfeatures FTL travel or hyperspace or whatever is using\npsuedoscience, and few if any describe how it works with the\nmarvellous, opaque eloquence of that passage in Torturer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nHow can QT explain the New Sun being attached to Severian, or being\n\"birthed\" by an act of intercourse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll concede the first point. I can think of several\nexplanations, as it happens, but since I'm opposed to\narguments that have to write their own Wolfe fiction to\nwork, I'll agree that some miracles may be just that.\n\nBut I've never agreed with this thing about the New Sun\nbeing created by Sev and Apheta making love. That's just\nsymbolism. The New Sun was created deep within the world of\nYesod, and someone pressed the \"go\" button when Apheta and\nSev happened to be getting it on. Because of his mystic\nlink, Sev felt it come into being. Simple as that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-11-04T16:15:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Fairy Tale logic? Bah!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:30 PM 11/3/99 +0000, Tony Ellis wrote:\nYes. As usual I'm joining the debate after all the clever\nstuff has been said, but count me in as a member of the\nNOT-fairy-tale-logic camp, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if we are to take Wolfe at his word, he is quoted in _Lexicon\nUrthus_, p. 159 as saying in an interview, \"I view The Book of the New Sun\nas science fantasy -- by which I mean a science-fiction story told with the\noutlook, the flavor of fantasy. There are _no_ fantasy elements involved --\nno \"magic\" in the fantasy sense....\" (emphasis in original).\n\nFrom the lupine mouth. The interview is dated 1983. I suppose we can claim\nthat Wolfe was misleading the interviewer, or that he later changed his\nmind, but...\n\nRon H-E" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] } ] }