{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1926", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1926, "subject": "Baptism vs. Resurrection", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-11-05T21:23:19+00:00", "last": "1999-11-06T11:18:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ouroboros", "address": "ottofaij at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-11-05T21:23:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<<<>>\n\nOops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. \n\nHowever, the Baptism of John is a not a good match\nIMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The\nnenuphar represents death because \"under flower and\nleaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark\nwaters\" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the\nlife-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian\nmakes a straight-forward comparison between the\nnecropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's\nnenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. \n\nNow, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of\ndeath, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not\nsinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross\nthe Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the\nbaptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent\nJesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not\nthe kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol\nof burial and resurection is top heavy. \n\nFinally, in orthodox theology it is at his\nresurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When\nChristian's are baptized at their conversion or as\ninfants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection.\nOf course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year\nperiod between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm\nchasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a\nChristian.\n\nI suppose it's possible both things symbols are being\nused simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ\nseems to fit better than his baptism by John." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-11-06T07:18:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also consider that Severian's \"baptism\" occurs during the ceremony in which \nhe enters the guild. Master Palaemon sprinkles water upon his brow, if I \nremember aright. Later, in \"The Claw of the Conciliator,\" Severian also \npartakes of a depraved parody of communion--so the sacraments appear in \nritual.\n\nI agree with Ouroboros. The drowning scene seems more like a resurrection \nthan a baptism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ouroboros \nReply-To: urth at lists.best.com\nTo: urth at lists.best.com\nSubject: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection\nDate: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:23:19 -0800 (PST)\n\n<<<>>\n\nOops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos.\n\nHowever, the Baptism of John is a not a good match\nIMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The\nnenuphar represents death because \"under flower and\nleaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark\nwaters\" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the\nlife-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian\nmakes a straight-forward comparison between the\nnecropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's\nnenuphars. The Gyoll=grave.\n\nNow, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of\ndeath, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not\nsinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross\nthe Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the\nbaptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent\nJesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not\nthe kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol\nof burial and resurection is top heavy.\n\nFinally, in orthodox theology it is at his\nresurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When\nChristian's are baptized at their conversion or as\ninfants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection.\nOf course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year\nperiod between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm\nchasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a\nChristian.\n\nI suppose it's possible both things symbols are being\nused simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ\nseems to fit better than his baptism by John.\n\n--Ouroboros\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nBid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com\n\nworks" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Carlos Martinho", "address": "carlosom71 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-11-06T08:00:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose it's possible both things symbols are\nbeing\nused simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ\nseems to fit better than his baptism by John." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I\nread the books almost an year ago, and I didn't\nremmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll\nsubmersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about\nthe baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both\nsymbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in\nthe Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's \"public\ncareer\" begins after the submersion, just as\nJesus's...\n\n\n=====\n\"The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or\n unfound, is upon me at times. Often I\n long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces\n of translucent azure marble, mocking the \nwindless waters of lakes unfathomably calm\"\n\nClark Ashton Smith, \"Nostalgia of the Unknown\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-06T11:18:37+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Carlos Martinho\n\nThanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I\nread the books almost an year ago, and I didn't\nremmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll\nsubmersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about\nthe baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both\nsymbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in\nthe Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's \"public\ncareer\" begins after the submersion, just as Jesus's..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't \"immersive\" baptism always represent death and rebirth? The old\nself drowns and the new, sanctified self rises. Except ye be born again ye\nshall not enter . . . and all that.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim" } ] } ] }