# Baptism vs. Resurrection *The Urth list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 05 Nov 1999* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ouroboros *05 Nov 1999, 21:23* <<<>> Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The nenuphar represents death because "under flower and leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian makes a straight-forward comparison between the necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of death, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol of burial and resurection is top heavy. Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his resurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection. Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a Christian. I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ seems to fit better than his baptism by John. --- ### Daniel Fusch *06 Nov 1999, 07:18 · follows Ouroboros* Also consider that Severian's "baptism" occurs during the ceremony in which he enters the guild. Master Palaemon sprinkles water upon his brow, if I remember aright. Later, in "The Claw of the Conciliator," Severian also partakes of a depraved parody of communion--so the sacraments appear in ritual. I agree with Ouroboros. The drowning scene seems more like a resurrection than a baptism. > From: Ouroboros > Reply-To: urth at lists.best.com > To: urth at lists.best.com > Subject: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:23:19 -0800 (PST) > > <<< the > river Gyoll (is this the correct spelling?). This > could be a Christian paralel, anyway: not with the > resurrection of Christ -- wich, anyway, marks the end > of Jesus's "career" on Earth --, but the Baptism by > John.>>> > > Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. > > However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match > IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The > nenuphar represents death because "under flower and > leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark > waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the > life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian > makes a straight-forward comparison between the > necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's > nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. > > Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of > death, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not > sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross > the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the > baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent > Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not > the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol > of burial and resurection is top heavy. > > Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his > resurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When > Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as > infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection. > Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year > period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm > chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a > Christian. > > I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being > used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ > seems to fit better than his baptism by John. > > --Ouroboros > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > works --- ### Carlos Martinho *06 Nov 1999, 08:00 · follows Daniel Fusch* > I suppose it's possible both things symbols are > being > used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ > seems to fit better than his baptism by John. Thanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I read the books almost an year ago, and I didn't remmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll submersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about the baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both symbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in the Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's "public career" begins after the submersion, just as Jesus's... ===== "The nostalgia of things unknown, of lands forgotten or unfound, is upon me at times. Often I long for the gleam of yellow suns upon terraces of translucent azure marble, mocking the windless waters of lakes unfathomably calm" Clark Ashton Smith, "Nostalgia of the Unknown" --- ### Jim Henley *06 Nov 1999, 11:18 · follows Carlos Martinho* > -----Original Message----- > From: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On > Behalf Of Carlos Martinho > > Thanks for the impressive amount of info & insight! I > read the books almost an year ago, and I didn't > remmembered all the death-sybbols at the Gyoll > submersion -- I was mostly guessing when I wrote about > the baptism. Anyway, now I really believe that both > symbols (resurrection and baptism) are entangled in > the Gyoll episode. After all, Severian's "public > career" begins after the submersion, just as Jesus's... Doesn't "immersive" baptism always represent death and rebirth? The old self drowns and the new, sanctified self rises. Except ye be born again ye shall not enter . . . and all that. Best, Jim ---