{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1930", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1930, "subject": "Digest urth.v028.n079", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-11-06T12:10:57+00:00", "last": "1999-11-07T22:37:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Crampton", "address": "jcrampto at gmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-06T12:10:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n079", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "<<<>>>>>>>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't we forgetting to distinguish between Severian's lies to us, the\nprivileged reader, and his lies to the other characters? The number of lies\nand deceptions in this latter category is fairly significant. In the larger\nsense, Severian has cast his narrative into the ocean of time for people to\nread, and that is why Clute is so correct to call it a \"confession\". But\neven while confessing, he makes further lies.\n\nHere are some lies or deliberate deceptions that in my opinion Severian\nmakes in only the first two chapters of Shadow (Timescape paperback):\n\nLies to others:\np. 8 claims to be a Vodalarius to Vodalus himself and since V. might not\nbelieve this, further claims that there are \"thousands\" of Vodalarii of\nwhich V. is unaware (confesson to us: he'd in fact hardly heard the term at\nall)\np. 16 pretends to drink the hot drink provided him\n\nLies to the reader:\np. 2 perfection of his memory\np. 3 again, claims perfect memory\np. 4 \"I had almost died that day\". In fact, he did die, but does not reveal\nthe full truth at this point. [Later dives for his skull in vol 5].\np. 9 (chap 2) another claim about his memory\np. 9 \"I have never known my father or mother\" but later in chapter possibly\nremembers his mother (p. 15 lying in a cell on his back he hears a woman\ncrying)\np. 11-12 incomplete truth about the person in the mausaleum and why it\nlooks like him (I would say this is a narrative deception to provide\nforeshadowing and gradual revelation of Severian's story--a \"lie\" by Wolfe\nthen)\n\n\nLies to himself:\np. 7 \"half pretends\" that he is executing \"miserable vagrants\" for Vodalus,\nwho are \"less valuable than cattle\" (p. 14).\n\nAnd don't forget some lies by others:\np. 3 Drotte to leader of volunteers about being physicians' gallipots and\ncollecting herbs (several good ones).\n\nAlso don't forget that Severian without hesitation murders a man he\nconsiders to be \"stupid and innocent...a laborer\"!\n\nOther people might dispute some of these or select different examples, and\ncertainly the examples I've chosen are not equal in importance. But the\npoint is that it's surprisingly easy to find examples. The other point is\nthat Sev. is often very honest, even to the detriment of our image of him\n(eg., p. 9 tells us the only value he absorbed from his guild was loyalty\nto it, which makes his eventual betrayal of it such a tough thing to do).\n__\nJeremy W. Crampton\t\t http://geog.gmu.edu jcrampto at gmu.edu\nDept. of Geography & Earth Science\n[MS 1E2]\t\t\t\t’Tis true; there’s magic in the web of it.\nGeorge Mason University\t\t\t\t\t--Othello (III.iv.69)\nFairfax, Va 22030" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-07T14:32:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n079", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What Wolfe is doing with the tea-lady is to give us her view of science\nthru teleological eyes ie., that science destroys wonder (a common\nanti-evolutionist claim to this day). When the ballooning of the cathedral\ntent can be explained by the hot air from the fire which was started by\nSeverian's crash, this for her, misses the point, which is to see the Hand\n(of God) in nature. She isn't calling for a miracle, but that the event\nshould send us to God, not to the explanation. We modernists in turn reject\nher viewpoint, eg., viz. Dawkins last book \"Unweaving the rainbow :\nscience, delusion and the appetite for wonder\" which I believe argues that\nscientific understanding is what truly leads to wonder and respect for\nevolutionary explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, although from my brief skim, Dawkins does so in poor fashion--I disagree\nwith Dawkins on (most) things, but usually he's at least an honest battler,\nheading straight for his target--here he dodges around the fact that his own\nideas would tend to reduce Mozart & Keats to, well, specious memes of dubious\nsurvival value.\n\nAn interesting point with respect to Wolfe here is that a lot of the 18th\ncentury natural theologians, and earlier thinkers, rested much of their\nargument on the beauty and charm, if you will, of nature--the pleasant aspects\nof the design. CASTLE OF THE OTTER puts forth Wolfe's claim that part of the\ninspiration of BOTNS was to (heavily paraphrasing) approach natural theology\nfrom another side--pain and torture as indicative of the existence of God.\nI suppose, to show God's presence not just in butterflies and little lambs and\nsuch, but, Book of Job-fashion, in the alzabo and various Leviathans of Urth's\noceans (Abaia & co., who would be equally tricky to draw out with a hook).\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-07T17:42:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n079", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What Wolfe is doing with the tea-lady is to give us her view of science\nthru teleological eyes ie., that science destroys wonder (a common\nanti-evolutionist claim to this day). When the ballooning of the\ncathedral tent can be explained by the hot air from the fire which was\nstarted by Severian's crash, this for her, misses the point, which is to\nsee the Hand (of God) in nature. She isn't calling for a miracle, but\nthat the event should send us to God, not to the explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think \"destroying wonder\" quite captures the complaint of the\ntea-lady. Rather I think she's pointing out that sometimes scientific\n\"explanations\" don't really explain. \n\nIt's as if we were to find a man murdered and exclaim \"How could this have\nhappened?\" and the Scientist were to tell us \"You see, a bullet entered\nhis brain and caused it to cease functioning,\" and expect our curiosity to\nbe satisfied.\n\nActualy, I don't think that example quite captures it either, but it's the\nbest I can come up with for now.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-07T22:37:29+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n079", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Jeremy Crampton" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "<<<>>>>>>>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't we forgetting to distinguish between Severian's lies to us, the\nprivileged reader, and his lies to the other characters? The\nnumber of lies\nand deceptions in this latter category is fairly significant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which tells us little about his reliability as a narrator, assuming that we\nreally are _distinguishing_ between the two types of lies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But even while confessing, he makes further lies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zat so? [Continued . . . ]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lies to the reader:\np. 2 perfection of his memory\np. 3 again, claims perfect memory" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only a lie if a) it's not true, and b) he knows it's not true. Aside from\nthe Roche/Drotte thing, there's been little to demonstrate a) and nothing,\nIIRC, to demonstrate b)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p. 4 \"I had almost died that day\". In fact, he did die, but does\nnot reveal\nthe full truth at this point. [Later dives for his skull in vol 5]." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since he didn't know. Remember, BotNS was completed \"by Sev\" before the\nevents of URTH ever happened. In this sense URTH can't even really be\ncalled \"vol 5.\" It's volume 2." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p. 9 (chap 2) another claim about his memory" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which falls afoul of the same problems as the earlier ones when it comes to\nproving that Sev \"lies.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p. 9 \"I have never known my father or mother\" but later in\nchapter possibly\nremembers his mother (p. 15 lying in a cell on his back he hears a woman\ncrying)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, this is merely a simulacrim of evidence, despite the reassuring\nspecificity of page numbers. Here's what the passage of page 15 actually\nsays. The context is that Sev is narrating his \"near-death\" experience in\nGyoll. He is not actually in a cell at all, he is in the water\n_hallucinating_ that he is in a cell.\n\n\t\"Yet he could not see far enough. I was in one of the\n\tcells below the examination room. I lay there on my\n\tback, looking up at the gray ceiling. A woman cried\n\tbut I could not see her, and I was less conscious of\n\ther sobs than of the ringing, ringing, ringing of the\n\tspoon. Darkness closed over me, but out of the darkness\n\tcame the face of a woman, as immense as the green face\n\tof the moon. It was not she who wept . . . They grasped\n\tme, pulled me up, then flung me down, away from her face\n\tand from the sound of sobbing, down into the blackness\n\tuntil at last I struck what I took to be the bottom mud\n\tand burst through it into a world of light rimmed with\n\tblack.\" [Ellipses mine. Readers are invited to determine\n\tfor themselves if the text I've left out damages my case.\n\tI say it does not.]\n\nNote: There is _nothing_ in the text to demonstrate that \"a woman\"\nconstitutes a memory of Sev's mother. Sev must have heard women crying in\ncells all his young life. (He as much as tells us this.) Even the cell is a\nvision. It's entirely possible that his unconscious has dreamed up a\n\"motherly\" sound out of imagination or a memory that predates the\n_beginning_ of his remembered life. (My earliest memory dates to about age\n3.) But even if that were the case it would in no way invalidate Sev's\nclaim to have never known his parents. If he doesn't remember them, his\nreport is truthful to the extent of his knowledge.\n\nAnd if you want to use the idea that Sev \"forgets\" his parents as evidence\nthat he's a liar, familiar problems reassert themselves:\n\n1) We know that people tend not to remember things from very early in their\nchildhood. In that context, Sev's claim of perfect memory is to be\nunderstood as perfect memory \"since his memory was switched on.\"\n\n2) If Sev _thinks_ he has perfect memory, he's not lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p. 11-12 incomplete truth about the person in the mausaleum and why it\nlooks like him (I would say this is a narrative deception to provide\nforeshadowing and gradual revelation of Severian's story--a\n\"lie\" by Wolfe then)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there anything to demonstrate that Sev knows the complete truth about\nthe mausoleum before the events of URTH? This is a genuine rather than\nrhetorical question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lies to himself:\np. 7 \"half pretends\" that he is executing \"miserable vagrants\"\nfor Vodalus, who are \"less valuable than cattle\" (p. 14)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talk about your unreliable narrators! The three quoted phrases are\namalgamated out of order into a spurious whole. And what makes any\nconstituent part a lie? Are they not vagrants? (No proof.) Are they not\nmiserable? (I'd be pretty miserable if I found myself constituting Sev's\nbusiness for the day. Otherwise, he's not doing it right . . . ) Are they\n_more_ valuable than cattle? (Says who? You? Me too! But that doesn't mean\nSev does.) Is his pretense greater or less than half? (How would we know?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don't forget some lies by others:\np. 3 Drotte to leader of volunteers about being physicians' gallipots and\ncollecting herbs (several good ones)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what in the world do lies by others have to do with Sev's veracity as a\nnarrator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also don't forget that Severian without hesitation murders a man he\nconsiders to be \"stupid and innocent...a laborer\"!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which has what to do with honesty, precisely, as opposed to general\nniceness? Wait, I think I know - the fact that Sev doesn't try to come up\nwith a reason why the guy deserves it, thus making himself look better,\ntends to _confirm_ his honesty rather than disproving it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other people might dispute some of these or select different\nexamples, and\ncertainly the examples I've chosen are not equal in importance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But about equal in probative value . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the point is that it's surprisingly easy to find examples." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the critical equivalent of throwing mud and hoping some of it\nsticks, IMHO. And that (it is pretty obvious that I am bothered) is what\nbothers me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other point is\nthat Sev. is often very honest, even to the detriment of our image of him\n(eg., p. 9 tells us the only value he absorbed from his guild was loyalty\nto it, which makes his eventual betrayal of it such a tough thing to do)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And here I agree.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ******************************************\n\"There will always be Costello/\n a little larceny Bacharach,\n in everyone\" \"My Thief\"" } ] } ] }