{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1938", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1938, "subject": "What is a lie?", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-11-08T13:22:24+00:00", "last": "1999-11-08T14:02:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeremy W. Crampton", "address": "jcrampto at gmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-08T13:22:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What is a lie?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jim Henley:\n\nJim, it seems to me we can go in one of two ways here. We can hash the ins\nand outs of these examples from Chaps 1-2 (or others if people come up with\nany), or we can state our position on Clute's oft-repeated claim \"Sev. is a\nliar\". I was trying to say I agree with Clute and show what evidence could\nbe produced to support him. Granted, data is needed either way, but perhaps\nwe can offer our assumptions first and identify difficulties.\n\nAnd there are yet further levels, which I was (dimly!) aware of in writing\nmy post. For example, if we have two contradictory statements (eg., his\nknowledge of his mother) which one do we choose as true? That he remembers\nbreast feeding or that he never knew his parents? Was he misleading us, or\nmisleading himself? Is he even aware his memory is imperfect (thanks for\npointing that one out)? And how much of this is the author's (Wolfe) use of\nnarrative thrust, skillful foreshadowing, or the exigencies of literary\ntradition?\n\nWell, presumably one answer to these questions is: the same way a scientist\nweighs conflicting observations; by seeing which one fits with the most\nobservations already made. (This answer has its own difficulties of\ncourse.) Another answer is to check (like a scientist might) with\nprevailing opinion, and this raises the question for the community:\n\n-->is it generally accepted that Sev. lies (and if so, how often, how\nseriously, of his free will or under duress, for selfish reasons or\naltruistic, why/why not, etc.)? This is a genuine question!\n\nFurthermore, are we in agreement on the implications of the statement \"Sev.\nis a liar\"? To me, this does not make him less inspiring or appealing.\nSeems to me the error is to sanctify Sev. (and Silk?) and thus separate\nthem from humanity. But here I suspect one's religious affiliations creep\nin, ie., the text is always interpreted in context.\n\nDisclaimer: I personally came to my relationship with the statement \"Sev.\nis a liar\" not just through textual evidence, but a larger set of my\npersonal beliefs (\"people lie but that doesn't make them necessarily\nbad--it depends, kinda thing\"), my *aesthetic* understanding of the novels\nand Sev. (what makes good art is an unreliable lying narrator not a\nflawless one), Wolfe's interviews and what I think Wolfe is trying to do\n(here I could be wrong, could be right!), my readings of Wolfe's source\nmaterial (esp. ancient Greece), and FINALLY I think Foucault had some jolly\ngood points in his article on the \"death of the author\"! :P)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeremy W. Crampton\t\t\thttp://geog.gmu.edu\nGeography and Earth Science [MS1E2]\nGeorge Mason University\nFairfax Va. 22030-4444\n(703) 993-1210" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-08T14:02:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) What is a lie?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Jeremy W. Crampton wrote:\nAnd there are yet further levels, which I was (dimly!) aware of in writing\nmy post. For example, if we have two contradictory statements (eg., his\nknowledge of his mother) which one do we choose as true? That he remembers\nbreast feeding or that he never knew his parents? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This line of reasoning seems bizarre to me. Even if Severian does\nremember breastfeeding, would you really label this statement a\ncontradiction, much less a lie? \"I have memories of breastfeeding, but I\nknever knew my mother.\" Seems perfectly reasonable and straightforward to\nme. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }