Subject: (urth) More lies

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 16:49:42 +0000

Here are some occasions where Sev lied to the reader; that, or his perfect
memory failed him. The day after his elevation he saw the order for Thecla's
excruciation to begin on the following day. (I, XII)

"I could not sleep after that. Instead I went (for the last time, though I
did not know it) to the tomb in which I had played as a boy."

Then (IV, XXXVI), as autarch, he returned to the tomb, "The mausoleum where
I had played as a boy stood as I had left it, its jammed door three-quarters
shut.", to retrieve the false coin given to him by Vodalus.

Also, compare the little "charm" he recounted both when he hid the coin and
when he recovered it; they're not quite the same. One uses "glass", the
other "grass".

Here's another: Just after describing where he and his friends swam and
before recounting his near-drowning (I, II), Sev says: "I have chosen to
describe all this now because I never went again after the day on which I
saved Vodalus." Then, when he is captain of apprentices (I, X), "I took
parties of apprentices to swim, thinking that to be my duty, though I could
never dive in deep water without fear." Both statements can't be true.

During his "conversation" with the mandragora (IV, XXXV), another memory of
his infancy is awakened: "I remember a time very long ago when I was cold
and hungry. I lay upon my back, encircled by brown walls, and heard the
sound of my own screams. Yes, I must have been an infant. Not old enough to
crawl, I think." Yet (I, II) elsewhere he says: "From my earliest memory I
remember all. That first recollection is of piling pebbles in the Old Yard."
Any child old enough to pile pebbles is more than old enough to crawl. Note
the "brown walls"; the walls of the cells in the Matachin tower are gray, as
noted in the breast-feeding memory.

Now, these are just a few examples I stumbled across without really trying,
where Sev is either lying for no good reason that I can see, or, more likely
(unless Wolfe is sloppier than I believe), where Wolfe is showing the reader
that Sev's memory is less than perfect--or both.

Roy

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 18:16:57 +0000

>that Sev's memory is less than perfect--or both.

Or that Severian slips up. Remember that his memory is not perfectly
organized; he describes in some detail the difficult process by which he
reconstructs his memories. Even if his memory is perfect in the way he
describes, it would not function in such a way as to protect him from
misstatements like those you listed. 

Still, that's an interesting list. 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html

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From: Matthew Malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 02:20:03 +0000

> misstatements like those you listed.

How many Sevs? How many different histories might Sev remember of
himself at different times?

And how many memories may not be his own but conflated from the
alzebo: regardles of when the events take place Sev is recounting
them to us from the position of Autarch, or even re-writing them
abord Tzad's ship. if (and I'm not surre that I do) we accept
multiply dead Sev to produce the right one might not one Sev have
rememberted brown walls and another grey ones? Once never again gone
to the river and another done so?

As for the last time but I knew it not, that we certainly the last
time that Sev as he then was went to the tomb. I'd say that in
litterary terms it was fair comment for even without the
died/recreated stuff Sev the Autarch gojng to the tomb was so
different as to be another person.

Matthew

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From: William H. Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:58:14 +0000

>that Sev's memory is less than perfect--or both.

Poor Gene Wolfe! He can't make any mistakes at all. If he does he is either
accused of being sloppy or strange theories start to blossom in the minds
of members of this group. (Of course this happens all the time, anyway, and
I certainly don't exclude my own mind.)

But we know he does make mistakes. He himself said so, in answer to a
question asked him by members of this list.

Then again, Wolfe brings this kind of comment on himself by being
incredibly subtle, indirect and downright tricky.

William Ansley

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 08:16:10 +0000

> did not know it) to the tomb in which I had played as a boy."

I don't think "for the last time" here necessarily means "the last time
ever in my whole life."  In context it just means that he didn't know at
the time that he was about to leave his home and would no longer be able
to visit the tomb. 

-Rostrum

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From: JMCAzurin <mikah at brewsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 23:43:06 +0000

Roy C. Lackey enumerated:
> ...some occasions where Sev lied or his perfect memory failed
>
> The day after his elevation he saw the order for Thecla's
> Then (IV, XXXVI), as autarch, he returned to the tomb

  This doesn't have to be either an outright lie or a memory failure. You 
might simply interpret the quote as, "The day after my elevation, I went to 
the tomb. Little did I know it would be my last such visit as a member in 
good standing of the order of seekers of truth and penitence, for I was 
soon to be exiled for facilitating Thecla's suicide."

> never dive in deep water without fear." Both statements can't be true.

  He might just mean he never went for a fun afternoon swim with his 
friends again. He says he had to take the prentices, but the character of 
that sort of outing would be different. As Sev says he thinks it to be his 
_duty._

Mikah

- Are you crying?
- No, I'm bleeding.