{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1943", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1943, "subject": "the point of it all", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-11-09T03:58:48+00:00", "last": "1999-11-09T10:25:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Clifford Drane", "address": "dranec at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-11-09T03:58:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the point of it all", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel wrote, long ago..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, in Severian's own time, there are different types of stories. There \nis the story told by Loyal to the Group of Seventeen, for example. There is \nFoila's story, which resembles a medieval romance. There is Melito's story, \nwhich is like a classical fable. There is also Hallvard's story, which is \nrealism. Note that Severian never gets the chance to judge between these \nstories; nor does he tell the reader what judgement he might make. The \nimplication is that all four are worthy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree that the implication (hence lesson of this mini-story) is that \nall four are worthy - even if they are. I have always thought that this \nstory illustrates the fact that there is not always a happy ending, and in \nmany cases, no 'ending' at all. This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of \nthe Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will. :)\n\nIt's very Asian, almost Zen - the meaning of life is meaninglessness. The \nstorytelling contest has no end - and that IS the end.\n\nThe Urth books are filled to the brim with nuances, mysteries, etc. which we \nlove love love to ponder on this board - and the books seem to illustrate \nthe point that life is full of things we will never fully grasp, chains of \nevents of which we will never understand the links (no matter how powerful \nwe become). Gene has created a narrative about an imperfect world told by an \nimperfect author, imperfectly. Just like real life.\n\nI've caught myself digging through the archives, searching for the answer to \nsome riddle, with the overriding thought that someday, this will all become \nclear. But it won't - and THAT is the point.\n\nWell, in MY opinion. :)\n\nCliff Drane" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-11-09T05:16:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) the point of it all", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, argued, Cliff.\n\nBut I disagree.\n\n(snip)\n\"I have always thought that this story illustrates the fact that there is \nnot always a happy ending, and in many cases, no 'ending' at all.\"\n\nWell, if this is the case, then why does this mini-story end with Severian's \npromise to Foila that he will record, remember, and tell the four stories? \nBy doing this, he ensures that Foila and the rest will live on--will have \nimmortality, via the stories. They will be remembered, even if only in the \nsense that their stories are remembered. This is Literature in a \nnutshell--the stories are to be preserved and retold. And because of this, \nFoila's death is not a complete end. The storyteller has achieved \nimmortality through her story.\n\nSo I still argue that the point here has to do with storytelling.\n\n(snip)\n\"This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of\nthe Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will.\"\n\nI think agree with your notion that the vast and intricate mysteries of \nSeverian's narrative are meant as a Zen-like comment on our final inability \nto pin down and define life. It seems to me that it is also a comment on \nstorytelling (again!). Either a) there are mysteries because we can never \nfully know the whole story, or b) there are mysteries because a story can \nnever be wholly and completely told by the storyteller.\n\nIn a way, this is saying the same thing as \"life is full of things we will \nnever fully grasp\" -- but I think this is a commentary on storytelling, as \nwell. After all, storytelling is the human attempt to define life and invest \nlife with meaning. If we can never fully grasp life, it is because we can \nnever fully tell our stories. Modernism is an exploration of this concept \n(here comes The Sound and the Fury again!).\n\nIf you like, the four stories represent four perspectives on life. No story \nis judged above the others because all four are valid, worthwhile, useful, \nand beautiful perspectives.\n\nI think this part of Wolfe's work owes more to modernism than to zen, \nthough.\n\nIt may be that in the end is merely ridiculous to say \"It's not about life; \nit's about storytelling\" or \"It's not about storytelling; it's about life\" \n-- because those two subjects are really one subject.\n\nBack to you, Cliff." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-09T10:25:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) the point of it all", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's very Asian, almost Zen - the meaning of life is meaninglessness. The \nstorytelling contest has no end - and that IS the end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, perhaps--but I think a better statement for Wolfe's work would be: the\nmeaning of life is that there's a lot more meaning to life than you're ever \nlikely to manage to grasp -- the story goes on and on and on -- and that IS not\nthe end*.\n\n* But hints of eschatology lurk in the background, so it's not an Arabian \nnightmare kind of \"there is no end\"--there is and end, the line that Dr. Talos\ntalks about in \"Of Bad Gold and Burning\", my favorite chapter of CITADEL.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }