Subject: (urth) the point of it all

From: Clifford Drane <dranec at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 03:58:48 +0000

Daniel wrote, long ago...

>Indeed, in Severian's own time, there are different types of stories. There 
>is the story told by Loyal to the Group of Seventeen, for example. There is 
>Foila's story, which resembles a medieval romance. There is Melito's story, 
>which is like a classical fable. There is also Hallvard's story, which is 
>realism. Note that Severian never gets the chance to judge between these 
>stories; nor does he tell the reader what judgement he might make. The 
>implication is that all four are worthy.

I disagree that the implication (hence lesson of this mini-story) is that 
all four are worthy - even if they are. I have always thought that this 
story illustrates the fact that there is not always a happy ending, and in 
many cases, no 'ending' at all. This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of 
the Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will. :)

It's very Asian, almost Zen - the meaning of life is meaninglessness. The 
storytelling contest has no end - and that IS the end.

The Urth books are filled to the brim with nuances, mysteries, etc. which we 
love love love to ponder on this board - and the books seem to illustrate 
the point that life is full of things we will never fully grasp, chains of 
events of which we will never understand the links (no matter how powerful 
we become). Gene has created a narrative about an imperfect world told by an 
imperfect author, imperfectly. Just like real life.

I've caught myself digging through the archives, searching for the answer to 
some riddle, with the overriding thought that someday, this will all become 
clear. But it won't - and THAT is the point.

Well, in MY opinion. :)

Cliff Drane

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From: Daniel Fusch <dfusch at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 05:16:13 +0000

Well, argued, Cliff.

But I disagree.

(snip)
"I have always thought that this story illustrates the fact that there is 
not always a happy ending, and in  many cases, no 'ending' at all."

Well, if this is the case, then why does this mini-story end with Severian's 
promise to Foila that he will record, remember, and tell the four stories? 
By doing this, he ensures that Foila and the rest will live on--will have 
immortality, via the stories. They will be remembered, even if only in the 
sense that their stories are remembered. This is Literature in a 
nutshell--the stories are to be preserved and retold. And because of this, 
Foila's death is not a complete end. The storyteller has achieved 
immortality through her story.

So I still argue that the point here has to do with storytelling.

(snip)
"This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of
the Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will."

I think agree with your notion that the vast and intricate mysteries of 
Severian's narrative are meant as a Zen-like comment on our final inability 
to pin down and define life. It seems to me that it is also a comment on 
storytelling (again!). Either a) there are mysteries because we can never 
fully know the whole story, or b) there are mysteries because a story can 
never be wholly and completely told by the storyteller.

In a way, this is saying the same thing as "life is full of things we will 
never fully grasp" -- but I think this is a commentary on storytelling, as 
well. After all, storytelling is the human attempt to define life and invest 
life with meaning. If we can never fully grasp life, it is because we can 
never fully tell our stories. Modernism is an exploration of this concept 
(here comes The Sound and the Fury again!).

If you like, the four stories represent four perspectives on life. No story 
is judged above the others because all four are valid, worthwhile, useful, 
and beautiful perspectives.

I think this part of Wolfe's work owes more to modernism than to zen, 
though.

It may be that in the end is merely ridiculous to say "It's not about life; 
it's about storytelling" or "It's not about storytelling; it's about life" 
-- because those two subjects are really one subject.

Back to you, Cliff.

---

From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:25:08 +0000

>storytelling contest has no end - and that IS the end.

Ah, perhaps--but I think a better statement for Wolfe's work would be:  the
meaning of life is that there's a lot more meaning to life than you're ever 
likely to manage to grasp -- the story goes on and on and on -- and that IS not
the end*.

* But hints of eschatology lurk in the background, so it's not an Arabian 
nightmare kind of "there is no end"--there is and end, the line that Dr. Talos
talks about in "Of Bad Gold and Burning", my favorite chapter of CITADEL.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce