{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1947", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1947, "subject": "the points of it all", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-11-09T19:56:16+00:00", "last": "1999-11-10T12:06:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Clifford Drane", "address": "dranec at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-11-09T19:56:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the points of it all", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, argued, Cliff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, drat. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(snip)\n\"I have always thought that this story illustrates the fact that there is \nnot always a happy ending, and in many cases, no 'ending' at all.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if this is the case, then why does this mini-story end with \nSeverian's promise to Foila that he will record, remember, and tell the \nfour stories? By doing this, he ensures that Foila and the rest will live \non--will have immortality, via the stories. They will be remembered, even \nif only in the sense that their stories are remembered. This is Literature \nin a nutshell--the stories are to be preserved and retold. And because of \nthis, Foila's death is not a complete end. The storyteller has achieved \nimmortality through her story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your point, and I think our ideas can co-exist. Yes, Sev promises to \nrecord the stories (and we are reading them, so he came through on his \npromise). But I'm not sure his promise was anything but a reaction to the \narea being decimated and everyone waiting for his judgment being killed. If \nthey had lived, I think he would have judged (nice little sub-thread maybe - \nwho would he have chosen?). What strikes me is that they were all so caught \nup in the storytelling, the consequences of the judgment to come - they had \nalot invested in the whole thing - And it didn't truly matter due to the \nattack. I think it shows us that nothing we care about, love, hate, etc. can \nstop fate or chance (whichever way you prefer to look at it). Things can \nirreprerably change or *prevent* an outcome - what's the phrase... coitus \ninterruptus? I could be struck dead by a meteor while typing this, just as \nthey were struck dead before the conclusion of the contest. The cosmos just \ndoesn't care." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I still argue that the point here has to do with storytelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might add that, while I agree, it's hard to argue against that because the \nentire series IS storytelling, by Wolfe through Sev to us. I can't think of \na time when one could say it's NOT storytelling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(snip)\n\"This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...After all, storytelling is the human attempt to define life and invest \nlife with meaning. If we can never fully grasp life, it is because we can \nnever fully tell our stories. Modernism is an exploration of this concept \n(here comes The Sound and the Fury again!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and like in the film Rashomon there are many versions of the truth. I \nagree, but could insert that a story with no end is still a story, and \"the \nend\" is that it has no \"end\". Brain... hurt... :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you like, the four stories represent four perspectives on life. No story \nis judged above the others because all four are valid, worthwhile, useful, \nand beautiful perspectives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I could say no stories are judged because the contestants were all \nkilled, and the contest rendered moot. I can't imagine Sev *not* judging the \ncontest, had they lived. He's an executioner - very used to making decisions \nand not getting emotionally invested in the consequences of his judgments. I \nthink he would have judged, if the attack had not occured.\n\nCliff" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "1999-11-09T21:50:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) the points of it all", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, Cliff!\n\nI just need to disagree with you about ONE more thing. I think you're \nreading Severian wrong.\n\n(snip)\n\"I can't imagine Sev *not* judging the contest, had they lived. He's an \nexecutioner - very used to making decisions and not getting emotionally \ninvested in the consequences of his judgments. I think he would have judged, \nif the attack had not occured.\"\n\nSeverian tells us, however, that torturers are not supposed to make \ndecisions or judgements. Their task is blind, unquestioning obedience to the \ndecisions passed down to them by the proper authorities. Severian even tells \nus that he feels extremely uncomfortable when placed in the position of \njudge, is that he has developed an extreme aversion to judging, so that he \nis glad when Foila keeps postponing the judgement.\n\nAnd I would also argue that the death of the contestants does not render \ntheir dreams and their desires meaningless at all. Their dreams are \npreserved in the stories, and their love is preserved through the stories \n(the stories, after all, were told in order to win Foila's hand--except for \nFoila's story, which was set against the others). By recording the stories, \nSeverian ensures that their lives--and their deaths--are NOT meaningless.\n\nBut I agree with most of your other points." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-10T12:06:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) the points of it all", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clifford Drane wrote:\nI see your point, and I think our ideas can co-exist. Yes, Sev promises to \nrecord the stories (and we are reading them, so he came through on his \npromise). But I'm not sure his promise was anything but a reaction to the \narea being decimated and everyone waiting for his judgment being killed. If \nthey had lived, I think he would have judged (nice little sub-thread maybe - \nwho would he have chosen?). What strikes me is that they were all so caught \nup in the storytelling, the consequences of the judgment to come - they had \nalot invested in the whole thing - And it didn't truly matter due to the \nattack. I think it shows us that nothing we care about, love, hate, etc. can \nstop fate or chance (whichever way you prefer to look at it). Things can \nirreprerably change or *prevent* an outcome - what's the phrase... coitus \ninterruptus? I could be struck dead by a meteor while typing this, just as \nthey were struck dead before the conclusion of the contest. The cosmos just \ndoesn't care." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but whether this is true or not, I think it's not at all consistent with\nthe theme of BOTNS--the judgement in URTH shows that all of the \"loves, hates,\netc.\" we've seen in NEW SUN are, in fact, of cosmic importance--I think Wolfe\nis one of the few science-fiction writers who personalizes the universe while\nmaintaining grandness of scale. Wolfe has few Big Dumb Objects, but some \namazing Big Smart Objects (Tzad's ship, Yesod itself). Severian is special,\nbut he's also something of an Everyman character--the fact that his actions\nare truly significant is, I suspect, meant to grant all human actions\nsignificance. Wolfe's stories tend to take place in an almost frighteningly\n\"caring\" cosmos--\"The Death of the Island Doctor\" is a good example of this.\nIt is impossible for the characters in Wolfe's work to escape responsibility\nand judgement by claiming indifference on the part of fate/the universe.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }