Subject: (urth) the points of it all

From: Clifford Drane <dranec at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:56:16 +0000

>Well, argued, Cliff.

Thanks!

>But I disagree.

Oh, drat. :)

>>(snip)
>>"I have always thought that this story illustrates the fact that there is 
>>not always a happy ending, and in  many cases, no 'ending' at all."

>Well, if this is the case, then why does this mini-story end with 
>Severian's promise to Foila that he will record, remember, and tell the 
>four stories? By doing this, he ensures that Foila and the rest will live 
>on--will have immortality, via the stories. They will be remembered, even 
>if only in the sense that their stories are remembered. This is Literature 
>in a nutshell--the stories are to be preserved and retold. And because of 
>this, Foila's death is not a complete end. The storyteller has achieved 
>immortality through her story.

I see your point, and I think our ideas can co-exist. Yes, Sev promises to 
record the stories (and we are reading them, so he came through on his 
promise). But I'm not sure his promise was anything but a reaction to the 
area being decimated and everyone waiting for his judgment being killed. If 
they had lived, I think he would have judged (nice little sub-thread maybe - 
who would he have chosen?). What strikes me is that they were all so caught 
up in the storytelling, the consequences of the judgment to come - they had 
alot invested in the whole thing - And it didn't truly matter due to the 
attack. I think it shows us that nothing we care about, love, hate, etc. can 
stop fate or chance (whichever way you prefer to look at it). Things can 
irreprerably change or *prevent* an outcome - what's the phrase... coitus 
interruptus? I could be struck dead by a meteor while typing this, just as 
they were struck dead before the conclusion of the contest. The cosmos just 
doesn't care.

>So I still argue that the point here has to do with storytelling.

I might add that, while I agree, it's hard to argue against that because the 
entire series IS storytelling, by Wolfe through Sev to us. I can't think of 
a time when one could say it's NOT storytelling.

>>(snip)
>>"This, to me, is the ultra-refined meaning of
the Urth Books. The Grand Unification Theory, if you will."

>...After all, storytelling is the human attempt to define life and invest 
>life with meaning. If we can never fully grasp life, it is because we can 
>never fully tell our stories. Modernism is an exploration of this concept 
>(here comes The Sound and the Fury again!).

... and like in the film Rashomon there are many versions of the truth. I 
agree, but could insert that a story with no end is still a story, and "the 
end" is that it has no "end". Brain... hurt... :)

>If you like, the four stories represent four perspectives on life. No story 
>is judged above the others because all four are valid, worthwhile, useful, 
>and beautiful perspectives.

Well, I could say no stories are judged because the contestants were all 
killed, and the contest rendered moot. I can't imagine Sev *not* judging the 
contest, had they lived. He's an executioner - very used to making decisions 
and not getting emotionally invested in the consequences of his judgments. I 
think he would have judged, if the attack had not occured.

Cliff

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---

From: Daniel Fusch <dfusch at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:50:52 +0000

Hi, Cliff!

I just need to disagree with you about ONE more thing. I think you're 
reading Severian wrong.

(snip)
"I can't imagine Sev *not* judging the contest, had they lived. He's an 
executioner - very used to making decisions and not getting emotionally 
invested in the consequences of his judgments. I think he would have judged, 
if the attack had not occured."

Severian tells us, however, that torturers are not supposed to make 
decisions or judgements. Their task is blind, unquestioning obedience to the 
decisions passed down to them by the proper authorities. Severian even tells 
us that he feels extremely uncomfortable when placed in the position of 
judge, is that he has developed an extreme aversion to judging, so that he 
is glad when Foila keeps postponing the judgement.

And I would also argue that the death of the contestants does not render 
their dreams and their desires meaningless at all. Their dreams are 
preserved in the stories, and their love is preserved through the stories 
(the stories, after all, were told in order to win Foila's hand--except for 
Foila's story, which was set against the others). By recording the stories, 
Severian ensures that their lives--and their deaths--are NOT meaningless.

But I agree with most of your other points.

---

From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:06:46 +0000

>they were struck dead before the conclusion of the contest. The cosmos just 

Ah, but whether this is true or not, I think it's not at all consistent with
the theme of BOTNS--the judgement in URTH shows that all of the "loves, hates,
etc." we've seen in NEW SUN are, in fact, of cosmic importance--I think Wolfe
is one of the few science-fiction writers who personalizes the universe while
maintaining grandness of scale.  Wolfe has few Big Dumb Objects, but some 
amazing Big Smart Objects (Tzad's ship, Yesod itself).  Severian is special,
but he's also something of an Everyman character--the fact that his actions
are truly significant is, I suspect, meant to grant all human actions
significance.  Wolfe's stories tend to take place in an almost frighteningly
"caring" cosmos--"The Death of the Island Doctor" is a good example of this.
It is impossible for the characters in Wolfe's work to escape responsibility
and judgement by claiming indifference on the part of fate/the universe.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce