{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1957", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1957, "subject": "Gods and Spirits: Wolfe and Lewis: Till We Have Faces", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-11-16T15:29:18+00:00", "last": "1999-11-16T20:16:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-16T15:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gods and Spirits: Wolfe and Lewis: Till We Have Faces", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm replying to a message from the Whorl list, but this seems like it\nbelongs more under general Wolfe discussion. No Whorl spoilers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tThe Bible teaches that before the coming of the Son of Man, humanity was\nunder-age, and was under the governance of angels -- which would include\nfallen angels. Rather like being an officer-cadet in boot camp and under\nsergeants for a few months. Whether Gene has this particular aspect of\nBiblical teaching in mind or not, he seems to believe something similar, to\nwit: that in the ancient world there really were \"gods\" and \"spirits\"\nactively engaged with human beings. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the introduction to the Soldier books, Wolfe says his treatment of gods\nand spirits comes from a desire to take seriously the way the ancients\nwrote about them, that it is not all just stories told from nobody's\nperspective (\"One day on Mt. Olympus, Zeus said to Hera...\"), but includes\nstraightforward accounts of people interacting with the gods, and\nordering their lives around their worship. Perhaps he feels it is only\nfair, since Christianity takes seriously such accounts by ancient Jews.\nAnd perhaps your theory about angels is part of how he reconciles Greek\ngods with Christianity. He may have also been influenced on this point by\nC.S. Lewis.\n\nI'm not sure Lewis \"believed\" the gods were real, but I gather he hoped\nand wished it were true, because he loved Greek and Norse mythology so\nmuch. Thus, when he imagines heaven in the Narnia books, it includes\nDionysus and various other \"pagan\" figures, all living in submission to\nGod. \n\nI was just thinking about recommending Lewis's book _Till We Have Faces_\nto fans of Wolfe's Solider series. It is a re-telling of the myth of\nCupid and Psyche, but also a tale of adventure and intrigue set in a small\nbarbarian kingdom on the outskirts of Greek civilization. It has a little\nof the same flavor as the Solidier books, featuring inscrutible gods\nmeddling in the lives of the characters. TWHF also attempts to answer the\nquestion of why God, if he exists, does not simply show himself to us, but\nthe book is much less overtly Christian than Lewis's other fiction. I\nthink it's a great story, but would be interested to know what folks who\naren't Christians think of it.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-16T20:16:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gods and Spirits: Wolfe and Lewis: Till We Have Faces", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Michael Straight\n\nIn the introduction to the Soldier books, Wolfe says his\ntreatment of gods\nand spirits comes from a desire to take seriously the way the ancients\nwrote about them, that it is not all just stories told from nobody's\nperspective (\"One day on Mt. Olympus, Zeus said to Hera...\"),\nbut includes\nstraightforward accounts of people interacting with the gods, and\nordering their lives around their worship. Perhaps he feels it is only\nfair, since Christianity takes seriously such accounts by ancient Jews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, in an interview available on the \"paulduggan.org\" site , Wolfe\nexpresses a belief in the reality of such powers as the pagan gods,\naverring that the error was in considering them worthy of worship.\n\nYou make Til We Have Faces sound very interesting indeed. I'll have to\ncheck it out.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ******************************************\n\"What fades in time Costello/\nwill hurt much more\" Bacharach, \"My Thief\"" } ] } ] }