{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1963", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1963, "subject": "Messianic? - AHA", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-11-18T18:41:36+00:00", "last": "1999-11-19T12:24:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-18T18:41:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic? - AHA", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha. Thanks, Roy. I was under a misapprehension--I think we're in much\ncloser agreement than I would have thought about things--our final \ninterpretations still differ, but are based on similar grounds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When he lies to himself he distorts reality, or rather, his perception of\nit. When he then relates his perceptions to the reader he is lying to the\nreader by commission; when he fails to relate something altogether he is\nlying by omission. I cannot seriously entertain the notion that he lies to\nhimself but tells the truth to the reader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess the difference between formal and material lies comes in here--a formal\nlie is when person X, __knowingly__, states something untrue, __knowing__ it to\nbe untrue (so, stating something that you don't realize implies something that\nyou know is untrue isn't a formal lie, nor is knowingly stating something you\nbelieve to be true which is, in fact, false). There are actually some other\ncaveats (I believe, for ethical/moral consideration, which is where this comes\ninto play, that, for instance, telling an SS man \"no Jews are hiding in my \nattic\" is not a formal lie), but this is the gist of it. I think of \"lying\nto one's self\" as being actually believing, perhaps through willful inaction\nof the reason, things that are untrue. If you KNOW a statement to be untrue,\nin a complete sense, you cannot \"tell yourself\" it is true. Thus, \"lying to\nhimself\" means, I think, things Severian believe that are false--possibly\nin good faith, possibly out of laziness or an unwillingness to really consider\nsomething unpleasant. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not making these quotes up. Wolfe put them in for a reason, I suppose,\nnot just to pad the text. We can argue about which things Severian relates\nthat he is not telling the truth about, to what extent he is not telling the\ntruth, why he left out something that obviously should have been in his\naccount, but I don't think it can be doubted that not everything he tells us\nis the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gotcha. While I probably grant Severian much more awareness and insight than\nyou do, we agree here. Severian (I think) has a deep insight into the events\noccuring, but not a complete understanding--even after the transformations at\nthe end of URTH, he is not all-aware (vastly more so than before, yes, but not\ncompletely). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm even rather surprised that devout Christians aren't outraged\nat comparisons of Sev to Jesus. Perhaps they are; this list is hardly\nrepresentative of the people who read Wolfe. To me, despite the parallels,\nSev of the Urth Cycle is about as far from the character of Jesus as\nportrayed in the Gospels as two members of the same species can be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, speaking as a Christian, I'd be annoyed if someone said \"Jesus sure did\nact a lot like Severian,\" and I find the interpretation that reads Severian to\nliterally BE the Second Coming as silly (and explicitly rejected by Wolfe). On\nthe other hand, that Severian is a cad at times and never does seem to reform\non the matter of faithfulness to women doesn't prevent him from being a\nChristian figure; a process is involved in perfection, in Christian theology,\nand in general there is no implication that the Christian will never fail to\nobey God, at least certainly not in what I'm assuming is Wolfe's theology--\notherwise the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be useless. After all, the\napostles are \"Christic\" figures but spend much of the New Testament not getting\nit and doing the wrong thing; Peter's denial was terrible, but in the end it\ndid not make him another Judas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know all the points where they correspond; let me point out some rather\nglaring contrasts. Jesus never killed anyone. He didn't have sex with every\nfemale he could get his hands on. He knew who his parents were. He didn't\nearn his daily bread by being very good at hurting people. He was not a\nsoldier. He was not a temporal ruler. He never slept with his grandmother.\nHe didn't have a sister or wife, etc., etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, this is quite right, and one thing Clute seems to have difficulty dealing\nwith--as a CHRIST figure, Severian's rather blasphemous and (given the context\ndoesn't mesh well with that) ridiculous. Severian is not intended to actually\nBE the Christ of the Parousia. Rather, he is a human figure, an ordinary man\ndrawn (by implication by divine action) into becoming the instrument of events\nthat have a strong typological resemblance to the events of the Second Coming.\nSeverian's \"Revelation\" isn't a real eschatology, but if figures the real\ndeal--it is a secular salvation for Urth. In this sense, it is quite \nChristic--the eschatological Christ, coming in glory and judging the quick and\nthe dead. As this isn't the final coming, the \"salvation\" offered is the\ninflux of energy from the New Sun, extending the temporal duration of life on\nUrth (now Ushas, it is so transformed) into some indefinite future. The mass\ndestruction Severian brings is, in one sense, of course, truly terrible and\nregrettable, but in another sense it is necessary for the revitalization of\nUrth--without the floods and destruction of the New Sun, the future is that of\nMaster Ash; surrender to the ice. Severian kills everyone, but to fail to do\nso is to kill the Green Man. There is no morally neutral action here, thanks\nto the way time interacts; Severian can choose the future, but he cannot fail\nto act.\n\nNow, there's a nasty line here morally--after all, Communism, which Wolfe\nseems to hate with a mighty passion (and here I concurr) justifies things along\nthe same line--Stalin must kill these 30 million so that the \"happy good time\"\nmay come and we avoid the terrors of capitalism extending into the future. The\ndifference, I suspect, as Wolfe sees it, is that (A) Severian doesn't take much\npleasure in it all, and seems to genuinely mourn for those slain, and in fact\nassumes he will be among them, one way or another and (B) (this is the \ncontroversial one) unlike Stalin, it looks like Sev. has strong indications\nfrom the Increate that this is the way to go; the game IS rigged, although\nSeverian has a meaningful choice in the matter--Wolfe's playing, as we've\nnoticed before, fast and loose, but deep, with matters of free will here. \nJust because actions are \"awful\" from a human perspective doesn't mean that\nthey can't be commanded by divine will, in traditional Christian (and Jewish)\ntheology--even though he doesn't sacrifice Isaac, that Abraham was WILLING to\ndo so is, from our point of view, a \"terrible\" thing; however, to ask such\nthings is, at times, the way of God--the OT is pretty heavy on this stuff,\nrequiring personal slaughter in war of greater numbers for reasons less clear\nthan those given for the floods that bring Ushas. The NT is less obviously\nbloody, but the final eschatology is still in terms of separating the wheat\nfrom the chaff and burning the later. Simply the introduction of Christianity\ninto the world, after all, caused the deaths of, at least, the martrys, in the\nshort term--for greater renewal in the end.\n\nNow, because it isn't real, there's no way to finally, metaphysically find out\nwhether Severian was right--Christians, I suppose, must see it as \"if this\nhad been real, and God had a hand in it, he was right to do as he did.\" But\neven in a secular reading, which leaves out a lot of what helps judge the\nactions involved, Severian isn't quite acting purely as an earthquake or a\nvolcano (though, as Job shows, these are the Increate's servants also)--the\nstructure of the story is such that he must make a choice to either allow\nAsh's future to come, or to bring the New Sun. He KNOWS, without any way of\ndoubting it (this is where he has a huge moral leg up on Stalin/Mao, in another\nway), that one path, contingent in part on his actions, leads to the utter end\nof Ragnarok, ice forever. He also knows that there is a different, and, we\nwould all agree, I think, better, future possible--that of the Green Man. He\ndoes not, until near the end of Urth, truly know what the consequences of the\nNew Sun will be, though he must suspect they will be both wonderful AND\nterrible. \n\n(On the other hand, outside of all this, I think part of it comes down to\nhow Severian rubs you--I like him a lot, as a man, though he has his flaws.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe intended Sev to be seen as Christ-like, why make him so\nunchristian? If Tzadkiel and his followers were meant to be angelic, why\nmake them liars and deceivers, puppet masters in a shadowy theater? Why the\nimages of hell in Yesod? Wolfe is at least sending mixed messages." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... I'm still not convinced that Yesod is meant to be hell-like, I get\nmore \"Wizard of Oz\" man behind the curtains like--only here, behind the curtain\nare strange things that neither Severian nor we fully comprehend. And, of\ncourse, the statement that \"many have called me a liar\" by Tzad doesn't seem\ntoo sinister if you consider who might have called Tzad a liar--Abaia, Erebus,\nand co. would surely say Tzad is a liar, just as Lucifer told Eve that God lied\nwhen he said the fruit meant death. I think Wolfe is, in part, trying to show\nthat it IS all a bit of a puppet-show, in that though the actors have free \nwill, in the end the ACTOR, the AUTHOR, is really putting on the whole show; \nremove his granting existence, and it all vanishes, without even a puff of \nsmoke. Even Abaia and Erebus, though free to rebel, are not capable of \nescaping the iron grasp of the Increate's Plan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When he writes that he lies to himself, the reader is given\nwarning that all that he relates cannot be trusted to be true. People who\nlie to themselves do so because they cannot face the truth. Human nature is\nsuch that people lie to themselves about things that they regard as\nimportant to their sense of self-identity, self-worth, the core values of\ntheir being. This colors and otherwise distorts their worldview; all that\nthey perceive is filtered through that lens. This causes people to see\nthings not as they are, but as their ego will allow them to see them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true, but I think it's just about as true of David Copperfield,\nIshmael, the nameless narrator of THE BROTHER KARAMAZOV, the old \"authorial\npersona as narrator,\" and Huckleberry Finn as it is of Severian. I'm certain\nthat I lie to myself; I hope that because of this admission you will suspect\nthe things I say, but not TOO much; after all, you all do the same. :) It's\ncertainly dead on with the view of reality I presume Wolfe holds that \"we\nsee through a glass darkly.\" If anything, the Christic imagery in his story\nand the eschatological foreshadowings of a \"New Sun\" that doesn't just let\nphotosynthesis get back to normal (or better) suggests that Severian has more\nof a glimpse of the real than most narrators.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-18T21:47:14+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Messianic? - AHA", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fascinating exchange between Alex and Roy has clarified a separate\nrecent thread for me - whether UOTNS is somehow extraneous. I'm more\nconvinced than ever that the answer is No. UOTNS exists precisely (in part)\nto rub our noses in the _costs_ of bringing the New Sun. You can say, Yeah\nit's all implied in the four books, particularly in Dr. Talos's play, to\nwhich I'd say that \"implied\" comes a good bit short of the experience of\nbeing shown, as we are in Urth, and who would trust that little weasel\nanyhow? You could even say that your fine inferrals from the first series\nhave the emotional force of encountering the line \"Nessus drowned two days\nago,\" but I'd suspect you were putting at least one of us on.\n\nNote that \"you\" is the impersonal pronoun and should not be used as the\nbasis of any actual cash wager. Consult your doctor.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart\n it's just the thought of someone sticking it in\"\n -- Graham Parker, \"Protection\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-19T09:11:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic? - AHA", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Alex David Groce wrote:\nSeverian's \"Revelation\" isn't a real eschatology, but if figures the real\ndeal--it is a secular salvation for Urth. In this sense, it is quite \nChristic--the eschatological Christ, coming in glory and judging the quick and\nthe dead. As this isn't the final coming, the \"salvation\" offered is the\ninflux of energy from the New Sun, extending the temporal duration of life on\nUrth (now Ushas, it is so transformed) into some indefinite future. The mass\ndestruction Severian brings is, in one sense, of course, truly terrible and\nregrettable, but in another sense it is necessary for the revitalization of\nUrth--without the floods and destruction of the New Sun, the future is that of\nMaster Ash; surrender to the ice. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Urth have rainbows? Did the Increate forget his promise to Noah? Or\nmight this be a clue that Urth is not our world, but perhaps another\n(earlier?) iteration of the universe in which God did not promise there\nwould be no more universal floods? Or maybe it's our universe, but the\nstory of God's promise to Noah is false.\n\n(Did we already discuss this question? It seems familiar, but I can't\nfind it in the archives.)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-19T12:24:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic? - AHA", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: Noah\n\nHmmm... It may not be that universal a flood--there are clearly islands and\nsurvivors. In fact, I would guess it's returning coastlines to where they\nare in our day--massive icecaps formed by Old Sun melting back to good old\n20th century icecaps level (okay, maybe 20th century + serious global warming\nlevel, but you get the picture). How close is Nessus to the coast?\n\n\n(I think this list is active because every now and then it starts random spurts\nof activity, while Whorl is dead because we're all hypothesized out. We really\ndon't know enough yet to start in on OBW's mysteries--imagine how silly much of\nour speculation would have looked if we'd started in on SHADOW when only it\nwas published...)\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }