{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1967", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1967, "subject": "Messianic", "messages": 20, "voices": 8, "first": "1999-11-19T16:51:17+00:00", "last": "1999-11-24T10:37:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-11-19T16:51:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interpretive powers of the cabbalists of the Urth list are subtle indeed\nif the plain meaning of the text of TBOTNS requires a defense!\n\nI urge anyone with eyes to see to open up Citadel of the Autarch, chapter\n34, \"The Key to the Universe\", and read page 242 of the Timescape hardcover:\nBiologically engineered beings. Intra-dimensional travel. Breeding humans\nas their \"repayment and their revenge\". Any attempt to characterize this as\n\"divine\" represents either wishful thinking or an attempt to apotheosize raw\nbrute power, neither of which trends are strangers to the development of\nreligions generally, especially if you believe that you are one of the\nselect few Urthlings who will be supplied with waterwings.\n\nBeyond a purely textual approach, however, the primary argument against the\ndivinity of these powers is the poverty of their (final) solution to the Old\nSun; killing a great many people with advanced technology is not a\nparticulalry miraculous or novel approach. In fact, when faced with a\nPancreator who cannot correct His creation without slaughtering the mass of\nit, you have to wonder which is the more wretched: Him or His apologists.\n\nOri" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-11-19T17:12:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:51 PM 11/19/99 -0800, Ori wrote:\nIn fact, when faced with a\nPancreator who cannot correct His creation without slaughtering the mass of\nit, you have to wonder which is the more wretched: Him or His apologists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have often thought about this myself. If our universe or multiverse were\nruled by a personal Creator God, I think I would agree with you. (Hitler\ncreated the death camps, but God, let's say, created Hitler, and invented\npain and suffering to boot.)\n\nFortunately (IMHO) this is not the case in the \"real\" world. But in Wolfe's\npocket universes (Briah, Yesod, etc.) it is the case. Wolfe has explicitly\ntold us that TBOTNS is an extended meditation on the ways in which his God\nshapes Creation through pain and suffering.\n\nIf you believe us to live in that sort of universe, then your quarrel is\nwith God, among others. But if you do not, then your quarrel is with Wolfe\nhimself.\n\nRon H-E" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-11-19T18:31:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans wrote:\nIf you believe us to live in that sort of universe, then your quarrel is\nwith God, among others. But if you do not, then your quarrel is with Wolfe\nhimself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think my quarrel, if you can call it that, is with people who invert the\nplain meaning of a text without providing a cogent analysis which supports\ntheir view. Interviews with Gene Wolfe are proof of nothing except the\nstrings of words that came out of Gene Wolfe's mouth in the course of the\ninterview. If an author said \"I wrote this book to be a masterpiece\" are we\ntherefore bound to accept his word above all of our critical faculties and\ndeclare it a masterpiece despite the self-evident qualities of said book?\nIf Wolfe wrote TBOTNS to show how God works through suffering, then that\nmight have been his intention (or his intention ex post facto; I remember\nhis original intention being to write a book about blackmail), but I would\nargue that in that case he has failed, because he has failed to provide\nwithin the text a through-line which connects the sufferings of the people\nof Urth with any divine power; perhaps he was being too coy, or assumed\nthat each reader would provide his or her own bridge to cross that river and\nso failed to provide one within the book itself (a mistake which he perhaps\nrecognizes in Urth of the New Sun where he throws in a variety of broad\nhints which serve to muddy his own theological waters and make the book less\ninteresting to boot). My argument, therefore, is that if Wolfe did indeed\nhave these intentions while writing the four books of TBOTNS, and, as I\nargue, failed in doing so, in the process of that failure created a superb\nwork about the exact opposite -- perhaps that's where all the mirrors come\nin." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-20T15:46:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think my quarrel, if you can call it that, is with people who invert the\nplain meaning of a text without providing a cogent analysis which supports\ntheir view. Interviews with Gene Wolfe are proof of nothing except the\nstrings of words that came out of Gene Wolfe's mouth in the course of the\ninterview. If an author said \"I wrote this book to be a masterpiece\" are we\ntherefore bound to accept his word above all of our critical faculties and\ndeclare it a masterpiece despite the self-evident qualities of said book?\nIf Wolfe wrote TBOTNS to show how God works through suffering, then that\nmight have been his intention (or his intention ex post facto; I remember\nhis original intention being to write a book about blackmail), but I would\nargue that in that case he has failed, because he has failed to provide\nwithin the text a through-line which connects the sufferings of the people\nof Urth with any divine power; perhaps he was being too coy, or assumed\nthat each reader would provide his or her own bridge to cross that river and\nso failed to provide one within the book itself (a mistake which he perhaps\nrecognizes in Urth of the New Sun where he throws in a variety of broad\nhints which serve to muddy his own theological waters and make the book less\ninteresting to boot). My argument, therefore, is that if Wolfe did indeed\nhave these intentions while writing the four books of TBOTNS, and, as I\nargue, failed in doing so, in the process of that failure created a superb\nwork about the exact opposite -- perhaps that's where all the mirrors come\nin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you can interpret BOTNS in this manner, but I think you've failed to\nprovide an argument that convinces those who believe Wolfe succeeded in doing\nwhat he set out to do that he in fact failed. Obviously, of course, we haven't\nsucceeded in convincing you, but I at least don't claim that there is only one\n\"plain meaning\" of BOTNS, or of any interesting Wolfe text for that matter.\nAlthough Wolfe is, like Chesterton or Lewis, in some ways a Christian\napologist, he is almost infinitely more subtle about it. Wolfe's created\nworlds, like our real world, admit different interpretations--unlike some\nwriters with theological concerns who create worlds in which \"faith\" as such\nis meaningless, as atheism or anger at God is untenable for a reasonable \ninhabitant, Wolfe's worlds always allow the \"Dr. Crane hypothesis\"--Silk's\nenlightenment is a brain anuerism, the numerous points at which Severian's\nstory takes on a semblance of the Gospel narratives are purely coincidental,\nand the inhabitants of Yesod are what Ori believe of them. BUT, it is simply\na distortion of the \"plain meaning of the text\" to say that there are no\nhints of a theological explanation that is describable as precisely \"how God\nworks through suffering.\" Those of us who find this in the text are in no way\nguilty of ignoring the meaning of the book; that the other explanation is also\nnot utterly dismissed is what separates Wolfe's fiction from simple theodicy.\nHe is subtle and does not dismiss the problems of pain and destruction. But to\nclaim that he doesn't succeed at all in BOTNS is to ignore much of the subtext\nof the book--the read only the most obviously stated things, and with a willful\navoidance of what does not agree with one's philosophy. I don't LIKE Thomas\nHardy's explanation of the universe, but I don't deny that he presents it well.\nWolfe had a lot of intentions in writing BOTNS, like any author--he succeeded\nin some (a charcter with great costume potential, for instance), and failed\nin others (I don't see a story about blackmail coming through at all). But\nto say he failed in this one is akin to saying that because I/you don't ACCEPT\nPlato's philosophical arguments that he failed to even present them.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-11-20T15:22:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce wrote:\n\n\"Well, you can interpret BOTNS in this manner, but I think you've failed to\nprovide an argument that convinces those who believe Wolfe succeeded in\ndoing\nwhat he set out to do that he in fact failed. Obviously, of course, we\nhaven't\nsucceeded in convincing you, but I at least don't claim that there is only\none\n\"plain meaning\" of BOTNS, or of any interesting Wolfe text for that matter.\"\n\nI am not claiming that there is any one plain interpretation of the text,\nnor am I intending to push a single interpretation on anyone else; I *am*\narguing that the text says certain things very clearly which make a\ntheological or theosophical interpretation problematical to say the least,\nand if I can't convince you that chapter 34 of Citadel reads as it reads\nthen perhaps you own a different edition than I do.\n\n\"Wolfe's worlds always allow the \"Dr. Crane hypothesis\"--Silk's\nenlightenment is a brain anuerism, the numerous points at which Severian's\nstory takes on a semblance of the Gospel narratives are purely coincidental,\nand the inhabitants of Yesod are what Ori believe of them. BUT, it is\nsimply\na distortion of the \"plain meaning of the text\" to say that there are no\nhints of a theological explanation that is describable as precisely \"how God\nworks through suffering.\" \"\n\nThe intrustions of the divine (well, divine for you, \"divine\" for me) in the\ntext take three primary forms:\n1. Cultural artifacts and institutions which bring to mind religions known\nin the 20th century;\n2. Events which would be miraculous to us;\n3. Severain's thoughts and feelings.\n\nIn terms of #1, there are a variety of artifacts from earlier cultures and\nreligions within our own religions. Does the fact that Christmas falls on\nthe 25th of December mean that Christianity is a cipher for Mithraism or it\nis just an assimilated fragment from an earlier belief put to the service of\nanother system? If a reader approaches TBOTNS with the belief that\nChristianity is the central fact of the universe and everything which came\nbefore it is its prelude and everything which comes after it is its echo\n(assuming Christ appeared in Briah) then it is reasonable to look at these\nechoes and say \"Aha! Christianity!\"; but if a reader does not, then these\nChristain elements are, frankly, just part of the mulch after so many\nmillenia.\n\nIn terms of #2, it is established in TBOTNS that every single miracle (or\n\"miracle\") which Severain effects with or without the Claw is a feat which\nthe Hierodule's masters are shown to be able to do quite easily with their\ntechnology. This leads to my assumption that they are watching him,\nfollowing him around, and shuttling him and everyone else he \"resurrects\" up\nand down the Corridors of Time. This is an impressive trick, but its done\nwith technology and therefore is nothing more than a trick, and calling it\nevidence of divinity is like saying my flipping on a light switch is\nevidence of *my* divinity. Given the extreme discombobulation and amnesia\nthis effect has on most people, it leads me to guess that Severain is\n\"chosen\" by these powers because he has an eidetic memory which allows his\nnumerous resurrections to occur without making him a basket case -- kind of\nlike having infinite lives in \"Doom\".\n\nKeeping on with #2, let's examine the one miracle the Claw effects which\ndoes not appear to involve the Corridors of Time; the changing of water\ninto wine. Now, if I recall correctly, when Jesus turned water into wine at\nthe wedding in Galilee this was a useful miracle which improved people's\nlives on the material plane and also has obvious spiritual and symbolic\nvalue. Turning water meant for washing in with no benefit (if you can call\nit benefit -- it ruins Sev's washing) to anyone except for Jonas and Sev\nseems like a pointless, slapstick accident -- like Jove's thunderbolt\nmisfiring or Moses' bath water splitting when he tries to sit down in it.\nAs another poster pointed out it seem to have at most two purposes -- a\nmeta-fictional Christological flag planted by Wolfe, a possibility which is\nso inelegant I would prefer to discount it for his sake, or else an attempt\nby the Yesodites to trigger some half-remembered cultural fragment in Sev's\neducation which will lead him down the path of believing in his own\nMessiahship. Either way, it's cheap.\n\nOn to #3, Sev has certain thoughts and feelings regarding his connection\nwith the Increate and the Increate's connection with the world. These\nthoughts, though, are entirely subjective and you can either say \"Yeah, I\ndig that!\" or \"No, I don't dig that!\" or \"Those words are mighty purty but I\ndon't think the world works that way\" but either way they are determinative\nproof of nothing except Sev's own impressions of what's going on around him,\nand he's been shown to be wrong before.\n\n\"Those of us who find this in the text are in no way\nguilty of ignoring the meaning of the book; that the other explanation is\nalso\nnot utterly dismissed is what separates Wolfe's fiction from simple\ntheodicy.\nHe is subtle and does not dismiss the problems of pain and destruction. But\nto\nclaim that he doesn't succeed at all in BOTNS is to ignore much of the\nsubtext\nof the book--the read only the most obviously stated things, and with a\nwillful\navoidance of what does not agree with one's philosophy.\"\n\nI disagree with you. I am attempting a reading of the text which takes into\naccount what is in the text and does not invlove a willful imposition of\none's philosophy, whether that philosophy is extra-textually shared with the\nauthor or not.\n\n\"But to say he failed in this one is akin to saying that because I/you don't\nACCEPT\nPlato's philosophical arguments that he failed to even present them.\"\n\nI am saying that if Wolfe has said in interviews that TBOTNS is an exercise\nin theodicy then in that case he has failed. Why? because he presents a\nstory which *on its face* is about nothing more than the degradation and\ngenocide of the people of a planet for no discernable moral purpose. If the\nreader is contractually obliged to read this and say, \"Well, in some\nmysterious and unfathomable way this is all for the best\" then the reader is\nbeing asked to do the author's work for him and so the promised theodicy\nnever even shows up. Which is where the book gets interesting.\n\nFor me, at least." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-20T19:18:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ori:\n\nOk, it's not that we're reading Chapter 34 differently, as far as what it says.\nIt's that the meaning \"behind\" those things is something we approach very\ndifferently. First of all, probably in part because of the hints of the \nnuminous, I simply don't accept that this is just a pointless genocide, EVEN\nIF ONE REJECTS a religious interpretation for events. You can say it is, but\nI think your evidence is fairly weak. I prefer to give Yesod benefit of the\ndoubt--I have no reason to think there is a BETTER solution to the problem of\nthe Old Sun than the arrival of the New Sun. We know from Typhon's day that\na simple gift of energy with no other changes would probably bring back the\ndays of mankind as emotionless scourge of the universe, conquering all within\nhis domain. (In one sense, the Briah crew are anti-colonialists, 5HC? having\nbeen formed, IIRC, under the scourge of humanity's world-shaking days). In\nfact, it seems to me that you're thinking the hieros to be more Divine than I\nam, in that you assume that because they have impressive technology they could,\nof course, come up with a solution to things that doesn't involve any pain or\nsuffering or destruction for anyone--this reminds me of Wellsian scientific\nutopianism--\"given good tech, there are really NO problems.\" This is not what\nWolfe believes, and while you can hate his premises, it's hard to assault the\nactions of beings in a fictional world where your premises are almost certainly\nfalse. In other words, you doubt the premise that \"if Severian and the Briah\ncrew don't bring the New Sun, destructive as it is, then comes Ragnarok.\" If\nyou don't grant that, then their methods are certainly suspect--but I take it\nas a granted fact of the fiction, because there seems to be nothing in the text\nto suggest this assumption is doubtful--Severian's visit to Master Ash isn't\npresented as a \"trick\" of his masters (contrast: WATCHMEN where the entire \nstory is built around questioning the \"do this awful thing or everyone will\ndie\" assumption). Given that, just because the techniques used are\nmanipulative and described as \"revenge\" (in an ironic sense--painful though it\nwas, the humans' \"wronging\" of the hieros made them better--and they intend\nto \"return the favor\") doesn't necessarily mean what you seem to think it does.\nI'm NOT saying the hieros are Divine or that Tzad is actually a literal\narchangel--they use technological methods and means, and seem to have limits\nto their knowledge; I doubt that the Increate sends down orders every day to\nthem, myself. But I have no problem ascribing the action of Providence to\nhuman actions, even those of highly flawed humans. When the priest celebrates\nMass, Wolfe & I would say he is acting in the place of Christ, doing something\nGod wants him to do, the instrument of a Divine action--but not that Father Bob\nIS GOD, or may not drink too much or throw away his money betting on a bad \nhorse. After all, in Wolfe's view, Erebus and Abaia are also doing the will \nof the Increate, they just don't like it.\n\nIn the end: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? because he presents a story which *on its face* is about nothing more \nthan the degradation and genocide of the people of a planet for no discernable\nmoral purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly don't think you or I or any of the others on this list deal with\na Wolfe story as what it is *on its face*. We are always trying to peel off\nthe mask. And I think you have to go considerably beneath the mask (the wrong\nway, IMO) to get to the conclusion that this has \"no discernable moral \npurpose\"; you have to start radically doubting everything Severian comes to\nbelieve to decide this, and you have to reach deep enough to doubt the basic\nassumption about the New Sun/Green Man/Master Ash. That's hardly what I would\ncall the obvious interpretation any reasonable person would take--considering\nit shows a deep involvement in BOTNS, but I think a deeper understanding leads\nto rejecting it as possible but highly unlikely.\n\nI suspect in the end our disagreement may come down to questions of extra-\ntextual references. Without SOME kind of extra-textual reference, I can't\neven prove BOTNS is anything but a stream of random ASCII characters. I'm\nwilling to go pretty far in extra-textuality, and throw in Wolfe's statements\nin interviews, etc., as useful in deciding which interpretations to give more\nweight, especially as these are the interpretations that I, as a reader, found\nbefore I'd read the interviews, although the interviews added depth to some\nof the ideas. Anyone is free to interpret a book any way they want--but if\nan interpretation is radically different than the one that (A) readers who come\nfrom points-of-view at all similar to the author's arrive at without any help\nfrom the author and (B) the author claims he intended, THEN it's curious to\nblame the author because those who disagree with his premises fail, after\nreading his book, to share his conclusions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with you. I am attempting a reading of the text which takes into\naccount what is in the text and does not invlove a willful imposition of\none's philosophy, whether that philosophy is extra-textually shared with the\nauthor or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is, indeed where we disagree--you give YOUR assumptions (that events\nrecapturing Christian elements in a story are in NO WAY EVER to be read as\nhints of divine involvement) ground zero value (pure-text reading) and make\nmy assumption (events recaputing Christian elements in a world that doesn't\nseem to have any Christian institutions surviving in a recognizable form,\nalthough some may survive--the Pelerines, for example--are HIGHLY suggestive\nof divine involvement) evidence of extra-textual imposition of philosophy.\nThere IS no ground zero--in a text like this, you can't interpret it at all\nwithout SOME kind of metaphysics, unless you really want to miss the whole \npoint.\n\nAt any rate, I think the author's beliefs are kosher in book-interpretation\nas well. I'm sure there's some way to pull a Christian interpretation out of\n\"No Exit,\" but I think Sartre & his interpreters have a right to dismiss it\nmore than I have a right to dismiss the atheistic-existentialist \ninterpretation.\n\n\nActually, I think we could probably just go and copy our old arguments out of\nthe archives here, I doubt either of us is going to convince the other\n(or anybody else who's taken a side)--I think we're at a genuine impasse on \nthis, just like the last time this thread showed up, and my lengthy arguments\nare mostly signs that I don't want to work on this program for my research\nadvisor.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-11-20T17:46:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ordinarily, Alex, I'd be happy to give you the last word and happily walk\naway from this debate, which has been recycled a few time before. However,\nsomething which you wrote makes me think that I've failed to make myself\nclear about what I'm saying, in particular where you wrote:\n\n\"In other words, you doubt the premise that \"if Severian and the Briah\ncrew don't bring the New Sun, destructive as it is, then comes Ragnarok.\"\nIf\nyou don't grant that, then their methods are certainly suspect--but I take\nit\nas a granted fact of the fiction, because there seems to be nothing in the\ntext\nto suggest this assumption is doubtful--Severian's visit to Master Ash isn't\npresented as a \"trick\" of his masters\"\n\nI wish to clarify that I certainly do not doubt that Ragnarok is the\ninevitable outcome of the failure of the New Sun to appear. Nor do I doubt\nthat human expansion into the universe prior to the darkening of the sun was\nviolent and imperialistic. If Gene Wolfe's premise is that humanity is bad\nnews, irremediable, and must be destroyed for the good of everyone else,\nthen, yes, as you point out, I can disagree with that but all I would be\ndoing is railing against the author's point of view. However, if it is\ncorrect that Gene Wolfe's premise is that the human urge to conquer and\ndominate is incorrigible, then why do the Hieros leave the humans on other\nplanets to work their will as they may? If humans cannot be trusted with\nthe energy of this one particular star in a galaxy of billions and must be\nexterminated as a species and replaced by the Green Man *but on that planet\nalone*, what is the difference between Ragnaok and Ushas? What evidence do\nwe have -- other than giving Yesod the \"benefit of the doubt\" -- that this\nbloody bioengineering program is at all justifiable? And at the end of the\nday, how can you logically say that the wholesale replacement of humanity by\na different type of lifeform constitutes the *redemption* of humanity?\n\nAlex, you can rely on your own interpretation and the interpretation of\nothers who agree with you; you can rely on authorial decree; you can make\nappeals to the gallery. None of that changes the fact that in the entire\ntext of TBOTNS you cannot find a single instance where the Diety is\nexplicity a determinative factor in anything that is going on; everything\nhas a rationalist explanation. If you say that you believe in Providence\nthat's great, but the simple, unproven assertion that everything that\nhappens happens for the best does not constitute the justification of the\nways of God to man, and if belief in Providence constitutes the whole of\nTBOTNS as theodicy, then perhaps its time to look at Yesod and Ushas in a\nnew light.\n\nOri\n\n\n\n\nOri" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-20T21:33:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Ori Kowarsky\n\nHowever, if it is\ncorrect that Gene Wolfe's premise is that the human urge to conquer and\ndominate is incorrigible, then why do the Hieros leave the\nhumans on other\nplanets to work their will as they may?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An excellent question! It relates to a new thread I'll want people's views\non soon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What evidence do\nwe have -- other than giving Yesod the \"benefit of the doubt\" --\nthat this\nbloody bioengineering program is at all justifiable? And at the\nend of the\nday, how can you logically say that the wholesale replacement of\nhumanity by\na different type of lifeform constitutes the *redemption* of humanity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now wait a second - this seems to require the following:\n\n1) That _everybody_ dies when the New Sun comes.\n\n2) That the Green Man's race was engineered by the heiros.\n\n3) That the Green Man directly succeeds the exterminated humans of Urth.\n\nOr failing all that,\n\n4) That the Green Guys kill off all the pink, tan and brown guys in short\norder.\n\nI may well have missed something, but\n\n1) I don't assume that everyone (except for the two chicks and the fat guy)\non every Urth continent perished in the deluge. While _someone_ certainly\nlanded two new humans, it beggars belief that something so -- macroscopic\nas a flood could be relied on to get every last one of the bastards.\n\n2) I read the Green Man's account of himself as suggesting something that\nhumanity (eventually) does to/for itself.\n\n3) The guy Sev meets on his return to Ushas at the very end of Urth seems\nto be not the least bit green. This supports the idea that the\n\"replacement\" of human by \"verdant\" is no direct thing.\n\n4) This just isn't what Green Guys are about, is it?\n\nFWIW, yet another appearance in SF of the \"humankind is a pollution on the\ncosmos\" bit sticks in my craw. Seems oddd to find it in even the most\n\"eccentrically\" conservative, heirarchical and grave author. But Wolfe\nnever asked if I was going to like it ahead of time.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"We can't be certain who the villains are\ncause everyone's so pretty\"\n -- Sheryl Crow" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-20T22:01:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, yet another appearance in SF of the \"humankind is a pollution on the\ncosmos\" bit sticks in my craw. Seems oddd to find it in even the most\n\"eccentrically\" conservative, heirarchical and grave author. But Wolfe\nnever asked if I was going to like it ahead of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I like to think it's more complex than that--we sure were a pain to have\naround, apparently, but the hieros (IMO) like us enough to do us a favor in\nspite of all. I think the Green Man is, definitely, Man. Man changed in many\nways, but Man. I mean, I can't imagine that the other folks in the universe\nenjoyed Typhon's empire, but I never got that they were doing anything other\nthan a (two-sided and short-term disastrous) favor. I'm sure I'd see things\nmore Ori's way if I thought we actually got exterminated as a species in URTH. \nYikes.\n\nWe still don't know for sure who put that Black Hole there, but humanity's \ncollapse seems to have been a matter of getting tired of empire (as a race,\nnot that Typhon would have tired) in general, so I think the other planets \nmay be playgrounds for the rich, or guard-posts, but that they're as \"burnt\nout\" as Urth.\n\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-20T22:31:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Alex David Groce\n\n\nWe still don't know for sure who put that Black Hole there, but\nhumanity's\ncollapse seems to have been a matter of getting tired of empire" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which brings up another question: Did someone have to _put_ the black hole\nthere? Might it not have just happened?\n\nPuts me in mind of one of Niven's Louis Wu stories (darned if I know which\none, it's been twenty years) in which he meets an alien whose species\nassumes that absolutely any bad thing that happens is a result of hostile\naction. Or was it a Beowulf Schaffer story? And did I spell \"Schaffer\"\nright? And isn't it interesting that \"Neutron Star\" could never happen, and\nwhat does that imply about \"hard\" SF? And am I full of questions tonight or\nwhat?\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ******************************************\n\"What fades in time Costello/\nwill hurt much more\" Bacharach, \"My Thief\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-22T09:30:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:46 PM 11/20/99 -0800, you wrote:\n\nI wish to clarify that I certainly do not doubt that Ragnarok is the\ninevitable outcome of the failure of the New Sun to appear. Nor do I doubt\nthat human expansion into the universe prior to the darkening of the sun was\nviolent and imperialistic. If Gene Wolfe's premise is that humanity is bad\nnews, irremediable, and must be destroyed for the good of everyone else,\nthen, yes, as you point out, I can disagree with that but all I would be\ndoing is railing against the author's point of view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think Wolfe's premise is that before the coming of Christ, the world was\nruled by violent and imperialistic empires. In the ancient world context,\nAlexander's Hellenistic Empire (which was not very kind to the non-Greeks\nthey subdued), and Rome. Later on, the various imperia that give way to the\nGospel. \n\tAlong these lines, and recalling Wolfe's interest in history, consider the\nfact that such imperia do not collapse into the peacefulness of \"let each\nesteem the other better than himself\" overnight. In fact, we see in the\nconversion of Constantine, and that of rulers in Northern Europe, that\nthere is an initial transition, followed by a long time of outworking.\nConsider that the initial transition is marked by something very simple:\nthe adoption of the AD chronology. The older way of counting years, back to\nthe founding of Rome, etc., changes to a new way of counting years. Urth to\nUshas? But it is a long time before the \"green man\" arrives, the man who is\nrestored to Eden. The process starts with a definitive break from the old\nhistory, and often with a great judgment (such as a plague), but takes\ncenturies/millennia to work out. This kind of construction is what I would\nimpute as background to Wolfe's narrative, since it lines up with his own\nbeliefs and interests.\n\tContinuing to tease out Wolfe's premises: The culture on Urth has\nforgotten the Gospel, and has collapsed back into tyranny and imperialism.\nTyphon is an example. A more modified form is in the Commonwealth,\nByzantium, which has a dictator, but also an opposition, keeping it in a\nkind of tense balance that cannot endure for very long. \n\tBut the Gospel is still there. It's underground -- where Severian\nencounters the missionaries near the underground sea, where people are\nburied -- catacombs? It survives in garbled form, as in Dr. Talos's play,\nas it survives in garbled form in the Long Sun. Pelerines also. (Hey, is\nSilk, who is tall, the Long SON, as Severian is the New SON?)\n\tPerhaps it's been discussed here already, but Severian descends\nunderground several times. Each of these could be a death-resurrection\nsequence. Does he not bring people back to life each time? Are these stages\nalong the way of his entering into his calling?\n\tAt any rate, we have a frozen, perverse, and tyrannical society.\nAccordingly, a judgment day arrives. No, it's not the last one. No, it's\nnot brought by Jesus, or even by a very good copy of him. But it is brought\nby \"angels\" working with/through a man who is predestined for this purpose.\nAnd it is an \"application\" of the Gospel, which when it first came was\nattended by the destruction of Old Jerusalem and then of the Beast-Roman\nEmpire.\n\tAs for the other planets in the human starry empire, well, the Long Sun\nNarrative shows us that the Increate has not left them alone, either. The\nstory of Urth is the story of ... Urth. Wolfe is not obliged to show how\nthe outworking of the New Creation comes to every other planet in the\nuniverse, but it seems that he is doing a bit of that in the Long Sun.\n\tThis may well be going too far, but the Bible declares that judgment\n\"starts\" at the house of God, meaning the Church. But Wolfe can do the\nsame, with a flood and resurrection of the original earth (Urth-Ushas), the\nimplications of which then flow out to the rest of the human imperium. \n\tDoes such a construction make sense to you?\n\nNutria (JBJordan)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-23T08:15:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Ori Kowarsky wrote:\nKeeping on with #2, let's examine the one miracle the Claw effects which\ndoes not appear to involve the Corridors of Time; the changing of water\ninto wine. Now, if I recall correctly, when Jesus turned water into wine at\nthe wedding in Galilee this was a useful miracle which improved people's\nlives on the material plane and also has obvious spiritual and symbolic\nvalue. Turning water meant for washing in with no benefit (if you can call\nit benefit -- it ruins Sev's washing) to anyone except for Jonas and Sev\nseems like a pointless, slapstick accident -- like Jove's thunderbolt\nmisfiring or Moses' bath water splitting when he tries to sit down in it.\nAs another poster pointed out it seem to have at most two purposes -- a\nmeta-fictional Christological flag planted by Wolfe, a possibility which is\nso inelegant I would prefer to discount it for his sake, or else an attempt\nby the Yesodites to trigger some half-remembered cultural fragment in Sev's\neducation which will lead him down the path of believing in his own\nMessiahship. Either way, it's cheap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're touching on my main gripe about URTH. I wasn't convinced that the\nstuff Severian did in his \"career\" as the Concilator was enough for him to\nbe remembered all the way to Severian's original time. It's just a bunch\nof Jesus-mimicking wonder working without any apparent purpose to it all.\nThere's no set of memorable teaching to be passed on; there's no sense\nthat his actions have some Greater Purpose that would make him significant\nto subsequent followers. It all seemed too perfunctory, too brief. If\nthe Concilator was such a powerful historical figure, his career deserves\nat least an entire book--if not four.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-23T09:10:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:15 AM 11/23/99 -0500, you wrote:\n\nYou're touching on my main gripe about URTH. I wasn't convinced that the\nstuff Severian did in his \"career\" as the Concilator was enough for him to\nbe remembered all the way to Severian's original time. It's just a bunch\nof Jesus-mimicking wonder working without any apparent purpose to it all.\nThere's no set of memorable teaching to be passed on; there's no sense\nthat his actions have some Greater Purpose that would make him significant\nto subsequent followers. It all seemed too perfunctory, too brief. If\nthe Concilator was such a powerful historical figure, his career deserves\nat least an entire book--if not four.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tPerhaps Severian's hohum earlier career has been conflated with the career\nof the real Conciliator over time, and that is why the myth exists in such\na powerful way.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-23T17:55:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nYou're touching on my main gripe about URTH. I wasn't\nconvinced that the\nstuff Severian did in his \"career\" as the Concilator was\nenough for him to\nbe remembered all the way to Severian's original time.\nIt's just a bunch\nof Jesus-mimicking wonder working without any apparent\npurpose to it all.\nThere's no set of memorable teaching to be passed on;\nthere's no sense\nthat his actions have some Greater Purpose that would make\nhim significant\nto subsequent followers. It all seemed too perfunctory,\ntoo brief." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand it, what we see of Sev's Conciliator career\nis just the start. He can travel the Corridors of time, so\nhe can pop back any time he likes to visit pre-deluge Urth,\nand we're given at least two clear hints that he does.\nDorcas, asked by Sev about the Conciliator, says that he\nused to appear and disappear unexpectedly. And then Sev says\nof the Chowder Pot:\n\n\"Often I have dreamed of going back, and perhaps sometime I\nshall. Certainly more guests came to our aid when Zama broke\nour door than there were any reason to expect, and I would\nlike to think that one or even several of them were myself.\nIndeed it sometimes seems to me that I caught a glimpse of\nmy own face in the candlelight that night.\" Urth XXXII." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-11-23T15:53:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) re: Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Tony Ellis wrote:\nAs I understand it, what we see of Sev's Conciliator career\nis just the start. He can travel the Corridors of time, so\nhe can pop back any time he likes to visit pre-deluge Urth,\nand we're given at least two clear hints that he does.\nDorcas, asked by Sev about the Conciliator, says that he\nused to appear and disappear unexpectedly. And then Sev says\nof the Chowder Pot:\n\n\"Often I have dreamed of going back, and perhaps sometime I\nshall. Certainly more guests came to our aid when Zama broke\nour door than there were any reason to expect, and I would\nlike to think that one or even several of them were myself.\nIndeed it sometimes seems to me that I caught a glimpse of\nmy own face in the candlelight that night.\" Urth XXXII." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is cool, but doesn't really address my point, which I didn't make\nclear, so here it is again. It's not so much that there isn't enough\nquantity to Sev's career as Conciliator, but that the quality that seems\nlacking. What's he going to do, other than wander around healing people\nand turning water to wine that will make him such a mythic figure? Not\nthat miracles aren't notable, but most of the world's religious figures\nare remembered for something more than a bunch of magic tricks.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Urash, Tom", "address": "turash at firstam.com" }, "date": "1999-11-23T15:51:19+00:00", "subject": "FW: (urth) re: Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum writes:\n\n \"This is cool, but doesn't really address my point, which I didn't make" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "clear, so here it is again. It's not so much that there isn't enough\nquantity to Sev's career as Conciliator, but that the quality that seems\nlacking. What's he going to do, other than wander around healing people\nand turning water to wine that will make him such a mythic figure? Not\nthat miracles aren't notable, but most of the world's religious figures\nare remembered for something more than a bunch of magic tricks.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think I have a sense what he's going to do: make a promise - not unlike\nanother alleged miracle worker making the rounds in these discussions made a\npromise some 2000 years ago. One promises a new sun to replace the dying sun\nwreaking havoc in the lives of most of the population; another promises,\namongst other things, a way to everlasting life to those without hope -\nagain, a pretty big chunk of the population. \n\ntom urash" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-24T00:48:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) re: Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:51 PM 11/23/99 -0600, you wrote:\nI think I have a sense what he's going to do: make a promise - not unlike\nanother alleged miracle worker making the rounds in these discussions made a\npromise some 2000 years ago. One promises a new sun to replace the dying sun\nwreaking havoc in the lives of most of the population; another promises,\namongst other things, a way to everlasting life to those without hope -\nagain, a pretty big chunk of the population. \n\ntom urash" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're probably on to something here. Simply going around predicting what\nis going to happen, and giving hope to the oppressed, would fill the bill\nquite nicely. Rostrum?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ori Kowarsky", "address": "orik at sprint.ca" }, "date": "1999-11-23T23:28:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\nI think Wolfe's premise is that before the coming of Christ, the world was\nruled by violent and imperialistic empires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...As opposed to the last two thousand years of European and world history?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the Gospel is still there. It's underground -- where Severian\nencounters the missionaries near the underground sea, where people are\nburied -- catacombs? It survives in garbled form, as in Dr. Talos's play,\nas it survives in garbled form in the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please explain to me how it survives, where we see evidence of this.\n\nOri" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-24T10:37:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: re: Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nThis is cool, but doesn't really address my point, which I didn't make\nclear, so here it is again. It's not so much that there isn't enough\nquantity to Sev's career as Conciliator, but that the quality that seems\nlacking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, maybe it was me not making -my- point clear :-). The\nthing is, we don't -know- what Sev does on those subsequent\nvisits to the past, but since TUOTNS ends with him finally,\ncomfortably, settled into his role as a godling, it seems a\nreasonable assumption that he could now start giving sermons\non mounts or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not\nthat miracles aren't notable, but most of the world's religious figures\nare remembered for something more than a bunch of magic tricks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, how do I say this nicely? Most of the world's religious\nfigures -are- remembered for a bunch of magic tricks. Most\nof the saints are nothing -but- a collection of magic\ntricks, with a unique and implausibly nasty death thrown in\nto make it really stick in the mind. Jesus? We remember him\n-now-, 2000 years after the event, for his teachings, but\nlook at the paintings and relics in any medieval cathedral\nand it's the miracles that spread and sustained the religion\nduring the hundreds and hundreds of years when only an\neducated elite could actually read the Bible or understand a\nlatin sermon. And especially that Uber-miracle: the\nresurrection.\n\nDon't forget, too, that Severian leaves behind a Book, which\nif it bears any resemblance to the BOTNS we know is chock\nfull of thought and philosophy. If Severian had appeared\n2000 years ago instead of Christ, today we'd be going to\nchurch to hear \"Dearly Beloved, we believe that we invent\nour symbols. The truth is that they invent us...\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-24T10:29:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Messianic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:28 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote:\nNutria wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe's premise is that before the coming of Christ, the world was\nruled by violent and imperialistic empires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...As opposed to the last two thousand years of European and world history?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tDid it not write fairly clearly that after an initial change the Gospel\nonly gradually changes things? I thought I made that clear, from my\nperspective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Gospel is still there. It's underground -- where Severian\nencounters the missionaries near the underground sea, where people are\nburied -- catacombs? It survives in garbled form, as in Dr. Talos's play,\nas it survives in garbled form in the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please explain to me how it survives, where we see evidence of this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI thought I just did. The reference to the Theoanthropos would be another\nexample. It's there, but buried.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }