{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1968",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1968,
    "subject": "Ori Hammer and Tongs",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1999-11-19T23:27:12+00:00",
    "last": "1999-11-20T13:55:10+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0484@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Nicholas Gevers",
        "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "1999-11-19T23:27:12+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Ori Hammer and Tongs",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I agree with Ori in some ways, in particular re the\ninexcusability of many of the Increate's actions, such\nas the immolation of the Commonwealth's people that\nUshas may arise. But Ori, aren't you approaching the\nmatter of whether the Hierogrammates serve the\nIncreate or themselves rather unsubtly, with a\ncuriously RELIGIOUS hammer-and-tongs zeal? Surely a\nstriking attribute of Catholicism, in contrast, is its\ntheological subtlety, its emphasis on the mediation of\nall Divine influences through sacraments, priests,\netc.; so why not aliens? Wolfe is hardly going to show\nus the Increate giving Tzadkiel his instructions for\nthe day; such a process is necessarily presented by\nremote implication only.\n\n\n====="
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0486@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Ori Kowarsky",
        "address": "orik at sprint.ca"
      },
      "date": "1999-11-20T13:55:10+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Ori hammer and tongs",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0028-0484@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Nicholas Gevers:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I agree with Ori in some ways, in particular re the\ninexcusability of many of the Increate's actions, such\nas the immolation of the Commonwealth's people that\nUshas may arise. But Ori, aren't you approaching the\nmatter of whether the Hierogrammates serve the\nIncreate or themselves rather unsubtly, with a\ncuriously RELIGIOUS hammer-and-tongs zeal? Surely a\nstriking attribute of Catholicism, in contrast, is its\ntheological subtlety, its emphasis on the mediation of\nall Divine influences through sacraments, priests,\netc.; so why not aliens? Wolfe is hardly going to show\nus the Increate giving Tzadkiel his instructions for\nthe day; such a process is necessarily presented by\nremote implication only."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Hmmm ... well, you may have a point.  I'm not a Catholic, and so I've never\nhad to reconcile myself to the worldly actions of an institution which I\nbelieve to be holy.  As I wrote in a previous post, perhaps that is the\n\"bridge\" which some readers bring with them to the book and some others\ndon't.  As a result, then, if you do not believe that crimes on the material\nplane are exculpabale or even laudatory on the metaphysical plane, then\nTBOTNS serves equally well as a critique of such an institution as it does a\ndefense for those who do.\n\nOri"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}