{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1977", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1977, "subject": "Religion of the New Sun", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-11-23T08:45:22+00:00", "last": "1999-11-24T00:25:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ouroboros", "address": "ottofaij at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-11-23T08:45:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Religion of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall from the published edition of his\nletters (publisher Houton-Mifflen sp?) that when\npeople asked J.R.R. Tolkien (also Catholic) if \"Lord\nof the Rings\" were a Christian allegory, he said \"No,\nI just can't write that way\". \n\nI also, recall him conceding that despite his devout,\nand practicing Faith, there was no real Religion in\nMiddle Earth (unless you count the Swarthy Men's\nworship of Sauron), let alone a Judeo-Christian one.\nAlthough the Middle Earth sub-creation was supposedly\nplaced in the nether-pre-historic past, it *was* still\nsub-creation. To insert the super-reality of his Faith\ninto a fragile sub-creation would rend it to shreds\nand blur the line between Fantasy and Reality.\n\nWhile TBOTNS is set in the distant future, it is not\nspeculative SF. Wolfe is NOT trying to argue that this\nis a possible future. I know there's an Increate in\nTBOTNS, there's one at the beginning of the\nSilmarilion. That's not religion. Wolfe is just trying\nto tell an interesting, plausible story. So despite\nthe reference to a Christian saint, Wolfe is NOT\nspeculating about the possible future of the Body of\nChrist. \n\nSt. Catherine of Alexandria is a useful motif for\nTBOTNS because roses and torture are an important\nelement of her story. I'll also point out that of all\nthe canonized saints Wolfe could have selected, he\nchose one whose very existence is all but certainly\nfictional, whose feast day the Catholic Church has\nremoved from the calendar.\n\nFinally, in an interview Wolfe balked at the\nopportunity to say that \"Severian is Jesus\". He said\ninstead...I know it's not in the story's text but he\nsaid it none the less...that Severian is a\n\"Christ-figure\" not Jesus. While he's suggested that\nhe believes Jesus made crosses (ala \"The Last\nTemptation of Christ\"), Wolfe clearly does not intend\nto map \"one to one\" Severian and Wolfe's Lord and\nSavior Jesus Christ. Roy's right. It would be\nblasphemous to equate Jesus and Severian. \n\nSeverian is a kind of messiah (\"promised one\") and\nWolfe points to that fact by creating a Temptation in\nthe Wilderness scene between Sev and Typhon. He's the\n\"head\" and \"savior of his race\". But he's only \"a\"\nmessiah not \"the\" Messiah. And a fictional one to\nboot.\n\nSo speculation about how the biblical promises of God\nand the Hope of the faithful apply in TBOTNS is\nsenseless because they don't. One is a something Wolfe\nhas committed his life to and the other is a story he\nmade up.\n\n-Ouroboros" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1999-11-23T18:39:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Religion of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouroboros wrote:\nI also, recall him [Tolkien] conceding that despite his devout,\nand practicing Faith, there was no real Religion in\nMiddle Earth (unless you count the Swarthy Men's\nworship of Sauron), let alone a Judeo-Christian one.\nAlthough the Middle Earth sub-creation was supposedly\nplaced in the nether-pre-historic past, it *was* still\nsub-creation. To insert the super-reality of his Faith\ninto a fragile sub-creation would rend it to shreds\nand blur the line between Fantasy and Reality.\n\nWhile TBOTNS is set in the distant future, it is not\nspeculative SF. Wolfe is NOT trying to argue that this\nis a possible future. I know there's an Increate in\nTBOTNS, there's one at the beginning of the\nSilmarilion. That's not religion. Wolfe is just trying\nto tell an interesting, plausible story. So despite\nthe reference to a Christian saint, Wolfe is NOT\nspeculating about the possible future of the Body of\nChrist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "although the world of Middle Earth has no overt worship or ritual\nthat's not quite the same thing as saying that there is no religion.\n\nOne profound difference between Middle earth and our world is that\nManwe and the Valar knew Illuvatar and the Eldar knew the Valar -\neven men have known some of the Maia, even if only the wise\nrecognise this. There is a certainty possible to them, even at\nseveral removes, that has no analogue in this worlds faiths. Indeed\n'faith' is not required when any passing elf could supply you with\nthe chief angel's address.\n\nThe situation on Urth is not dissimilar. Although we have ritual\nwith forms that we recognise as religious and orders such as the\nPelegrines we also have the Heirogramates who appear to have a\ncloser connection to the Increate of that universe than we do. Again\nfaith becomes moot if one can board ship and visit the Increate's\nservants.\n\nFaith however does rear its head (ugly or otherwise) in the matter\nof the New Sun. In its promised coming we seem to have some root for\npopular religion. We also have a parallel for the Second Coming.\n\nIndeed that is not to indicate that here we have a predictive\nstatement directly about Christianity. What there is still room for\nhowever is that which Tolkien denied writing: an alegorical\nstatement. Today God or the Increate is not susceptible to proofs of\nreality. What might change if at some future date it were otherwise?\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-11-24T00:25:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Religion of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "although the world of Middle Earth has no overt worship or ritual\nthat's not quite the same thing as saying that there is no religion.\n\nOne profound difference between Middle earth and our world is that\nManwe and the Valar knew Illuvatar and the Eldar knew the Valar -\neven men have known some of the Maia, even if only the wise\nrecognise this. There is a certainty possible to them, even at\nseveral removes, that has no analogue in this worlds faiths. Indeed\n'faith' is not required when any passing elf could supply you with\nthe chief angel's address." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly so! I have never been able to understand how anyone could complain\nthat there is no religion in _The Lord of the Rings_ when it is obvious\nthat there is no need for religion as we know it in that world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The situation on Urth is not dissimilar. Although we have ritual\nwith forms that we recognise as religious and orders such as the\nPelegrines we also have the Heirogramates who appear to have a\ncloser connection to the Increate of that universe than we do. Again\nfaith becomes moot if one can board ship and visit the Increate's\nservants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had not though of applying the same argument to TBotNS, however. I'll\nhave to give this more thought.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }